Sealed drawings ownership 5

[cwald]

I have been working with Engineering drawing for the past 20 some years. I working with document control not engineering.. Anyways I was wondering if we hire an engineering firm for a project and they summit a sealed set of drawings who is required to keep this sealed drawing for record?

We have our own engineering drawing management system and this question comes up several times.

Is it an owner legel responsiblity to keep a record of the sealed drawings or is it the Engineering firms???

Clint

 

[Apexpredetor]

Hmmm. I waould also liek to know the legalities of this one.

 

[ztengguy]

I am not aware of any legal requirement to save a set of drawings, I am from OHIO so it could differ in other states.

 

[EngineeringEric]

In my experience, the owner rarely has drawings. When doing rehab or additions or investigations i will be lucky if i can salvage up half of a set of drawings, but 30% of the time they have no drawings if the facility is greater than 10 years old.

I like to think it is the Engineers responsibility for a self-liability issue. If something occurs the Engineering firm should want their drawings to show what they required and it can be used in court for protection. And now of days we are talking a digital set on a server and a hard disk backup.

 

[ztengguy]

But once a project is done, I dont think its legally required you keep drawings. Some financial stuff yes, but drawings, I dont think so. I have heard some folks soon as the building is opened, they get rid of calcs. That way there is no liability from them, they can recreate if needed.

As an engineer its our responsibility to make sure a building densest fall down. I don't think the law requires us to prove it in a written fashion. So clients do, but legally we don't have to do calcs.

 

[EngineeringEric]

ztenguy, i agree with what you stated. I did not mean to present it as we are required to keep it all. I would keep only plans and documents; so the documents that i provided during construction state what the members are, connections, details and what the EOR specifies, this way when the construction crews choose to not weld moment frames the EOR can have documents backing their design. But again, as ZT stated. i do not believe that this is a legal requirement.

I don't know if i would ever throw away my calcs, i don't think it is 100% ethical... but i may have to think about this from a litigation standpoint.

 

[CANPRO]

As others have stated, I don't know if there is a legal obligation for the owner or engineer to keep the drawings. But I think it is a good a idea for the both to keep the drawings. I have the same experience as Eric...owners never have drawings. I'm not sure why they don't keep them. Maybe they don't appreciate the importance of them or the convenience of having them for future renovations. An engineer should keep them for reasons stated and if nothing else as a reference for future work.

ztengguy, what is the logic behind no calcs = no liability? It seems to me that if you provide a faulty design and it is shown on the drawings then you are on the hook for that faulty design whether you have the calcs or not.

 

[ztengguy]

Right, but if something is not faulty, but someone is arguing its a bad design, unhappy, etc. and for whatever reason you get into a litigation, It would put the burden on them to prove that you were wrong. No calcs, no evidence for them to use against you. You dont have to prove your innocence in a court.

 

[GeoPaveTraffic]

Caneit,

The argument goes something like this: If you keep the calculations, someone will find some error in them. Likely a small error that doesn't change the design at all. However, if the case goes to court with a jury; the argument will be made that if you (the engineer) made this kind of error, how good could you be. Most of the public thinks that everything engineers do should be perfect, i.e. no errors of any kind and that if you make a mistake you are responsible.

While I understand this arguement, I don't really agree with it. However, this is the possition that many engineering firms are taking.



Mike Lambert

 

[CANPRO]

I've never been involved in litigation so its interesting to hear the reasons why someone might destroy the calcs. It still seems like it would be better to keep your calcs though...if you have confidence that they are correct and that everything works on paper wouldn't that make their case harder to prove? I can see if you're in a situation where something is questionable on paper but your judgment says that it is okay you might want to get rid of the calculations. Would the lack of calculations in itself be some form of evidence? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just like to see both sides of the story...and as I said I've never been involved in a court case over a design so I'm just taking a guess at this.

 

[cwald]

Thanks everyone for you input, interesting comments. I work for a power company and we have several power stations and we keep all the drawings in our drawing management system for future reference and changes that be needed in the life of the facility. When I asked the question in the past I have received mixed comments. Each state has their own rules on Engeineering Seals and even Engineers has rules they follow.

Interesting comments on the design calculations, some of the older stations we have we did get the calcs from the AE. But this was one concern from an AE we worked with on a new Facility, they put up a fight in sending us this information. In the past we have used this informaiton on designing structural changes to the facility. So for us it was very good information to have available for an operating facility.

Thanks again for all the comments.

 

[dcarr82775]

The key is that whatever you do with the calcs and drawings, you have to do it consistently. It has to be your office's standard practice. If you throw some projects out, but keep others you can get buried by lawyers.

We keep drawings and calcs. Seems silly to toss them since one day you may need them and clients tend to frown upon paying you to recreate calcs you should have anyway.

 

[ztengguy]

I have never understood why a engineer would fight to not give calcs to a client. Hey, im your client, I paid you to do this, I want proof its correct.
I would be looking for a new engineer if I was the client.

 

[fel3]

Over the years I have talked to several attorneys about this question, both inside the company and outside. Each has said to keep calcs, stamped/signed drawings, and other relevant data and files at least until the applicable statute of repose or statute of limitations (if any) has passed. In addition, professional liability carriers may have requirements for document retention. I have seen other posts here on Eng-Tips in which the advice from an attorney is reportedly to destroy drawings, calcs, etc as soon as the job is over, but I think that is terrible advice. I think it is far better to go into court or a settlement conference with, say, a less-than-perfect set of calcs that were at least done to the normal standard of care than to show up with nothing at all.

In structural engineering, where many projects are "one and done," I can at least see the temptation to clear out old files. In my type of civil engineering, where we may consult for a public (or even private) client for years, document retention is vital because the old files are part of the research we do for new projects. I have found relevant data in old job files that were decades old.

Project owners and contractors may keep copies of drawings and any calcs that were sent their way for a period of time after completion (the owner should keep at least the drawings permanently, though many fail to do so). Stamped and signed drawings are also a public record and the reviewing agency may have kept copies in their files; same with stamped and signed calculations that were reviewed by the agency. Some agencies around here will keep these documents for years, while others do not. I once found, in a local city's archives, a 10-year-old set of site civil plans that I needed for information for a new project at an industrial site. The owner of the site had lost his set a couple years before. Thus, destroying plans and calcs can pointless.

BTW, here are NSPE's guidelines for document retention:

http://www.nspe.org/resources/pdfs/Licensure/Resources/DocRetentionGuidelines.pdf

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[Ron]

Ownership of the documents is usually a contractual issue. As an example, in my contractual general conditions, I maintain ownership of all documents produced. There are several reasons for this....most state engineering laws in the US require that the engineer of record maintain all production documents for a certain period of time. In my home state, it is three years. If I give up ownership of the documents, I cannot control how they are used outside of my possession. Further, the engineering laws in the states that require retention of documents also have statues of repose (in my state it is 10 years) and statutes of limitation (4 years in general). Even though you might be statutorially required to only maintain documents for 3 years, it is a good idea to maintain them through a full statute of repose period so that you can defend yourself in the event of a claim.

As for owners or others, I know of no requirement to keep the documents.

 

[StructDave]

Previous two posts give good reasons to retain. Here's another one. If sealed drawings are mis-used such as for another project, maybe by alteration to title block etc, the EOR that has kept files is better able to distance themself, recover damages etc.

In the digital age, keeping files doesn't need to take much space.

After decades in business, many times we've found design records that gave us the inside track for new work with prior clients.

 

[racookpe1978]

One engineer above for a power company showed why they needed the old drawings - to start the re-design for changes and building modifications for the next phase or for repairs or replacement of equipment.

If you (as original designer) can tell the owner "We keep the drawings" then You (as bidder for the repair job or extension or replacement project or after-fire-flooding-feast-or-famine repair job) can get the repair job started faster and with a lower bid.

 

[vmirat]

First, I'm not a lawyer (but I'd like to play one on TV!). I think the burden of proof that there was negligence is on the plantiff. If there are no calcs/drawings for them to examine, then they would have to hire an expert witness to determine if there was error in design. The defense would then have to rebut the expert witness's testimony by hiring their own expert witness (not you). The debate then comes down to which expert witness is right. It probably doesn't matter how diligent you were in your calcs/drawings. If there was a mistake in design, then you're at fault. Of course, they would first have to prove that the structure was constructed in accordance with your design. If there are no drawings/calcs to reference, then the construction contractor could be at fault (i.e. diversion away from you).

I'm guessing this is where the lawyers get their position of not keeping records.

 

[fel3]

I am neither an attorney nor a playwright, but--for a situation in which there are no calcs to reference for a design under scrutiny that requires calcs--I think the trial or settlement conference would play out something like this:

[1] Plaintiff's attorney: "Mr. Engineer, did you perform the necessary __________ calculations for the __________ design in question?"
[2] Mr. Engineer: "Yes."
[3] Plaintiff's attorney (knowing full well via the discovery process that the calcs were destroyed): "May we see these calculations?"
[4] Mr. Engineer: "No. The calculations were destroyed and no longer exist."
[5] Plaintiff's attorney (now getting on his soap box and turning the Mr. Engineer into a shell of his former self): "Why would you DESTROY EVIDENCE that might exonerate you? Are you sure you even did the calculations? What proof can you provide that you actually performed these calculations? What proof can you provide that you performed these calculations properly and to the normal standards of practice and care? What proof can you provide that you were not only not negligent in this matter, but not grossly negligent? TO THE DUNGEON WITH HIM!!!"

I think you can see at this point the very steep mountain the engineer and his attorney must now climb to retrieve this situation and the engineer's reputation. If I sat on the jury hearing this case, I would not be very sympathetic towards the engineer.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[hokie66]

I like it, fel3. Don't suppress those hidden talents.