Standing Rock Turned Down 18

[zdas04]

PEDARRIN2,
I live in an area with 5 reservations within 100 miles of me. All of them have Oil & Gas production on them so I spend from $500 to $2700 per reservation to be able to drive my vehicles to wellsites on the reservations. My daughter-in-law grew up in a town in the midst of the Navajo Nation and has spent her whole life being a second-class citizen. My sons were not allowed to take certain class in the public schools because they have less than 1/8 "Native Americian" blood (their mother is 1/8). I have had to hire tribal members to "watch the parking area" on projects to satisfy "tribal preference laws". This is a field of discussion where the reality is vastly different from the narrative.

While I know that there have been abuses and sharp dealing (actually on both sides), for the 26 years I've been working in this area EVERYONE outside the tribe jumps through myriad hoops to ensure that violating agreements with the tribes does not happen without significant ramifications. Everyone, but especially government entities bends over backwards to guarantee tribal rights. If I sell a car to a tribal member and he takes it onto the reservation and never makes a payment I HAVE ZERO RECOURSE, he keeps the car and I keep the note. If he decides to sell the car to another tribal member, the tribe will issue him a clear title. A trivial example of general atmosphere in "Indian country", but one that illustrates the waterfront.

It is very unlikely that any tribal member living today has been directly harmed by that history you are talking about. It is much like descendants of slaves in the U.S. demanding reparations for slavery--only the very oldest of that community have any recollection of having known someone who was a slave, and no former slaves are currently alive. I refuse to pay for the sins of my fathers. I am absolutely willing to pay for my own sins, but their sins are their own. There is a point where wrongs done in the 19th century become history and not something to currently apologize for.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[BigInch]

"It is very unlikely that any tribal member living today has been directly harmed by that history you are talking about."

Until attitudes like that change, nothing will change.

 

[PEDARRIN2]

It is accepted that any individual of a previously discriminated group has not been "directly" harmed by the history, but it is a fact that these same individuals have (and continue) to be indirectly harmed by that history and directly harmed by those whom have not learned from that history.

I do not know if my ancestors were directly or indirectly responsible, but I do apologize for the actions which my group (white, male, "rich") did in the past.

 

[zdas04]

"It is very unlikely that any tribal member living today has been directly harmed by that history you are talking about."

Until attitudes like that change, nothing will change.

I simply do not know how to deal with that statement. The culture of fashionable outrage and protected speech has gotten way beyond destructive. Until people return to identifying themselves as "People" instead of "butt hurt disenfranchised victims" nothing will change. Living in close proximity to large numbers of people who were born on the reservations, I can tell you that the subset who decided to participate in the American dream are simply "folks". Some are outstanding at what they do. Some are not. Some are happy. Some are not. Some are good neighbors. Some are not. Some are good employees. Some are not. They are just like anyone else you meet in your everyday life. I am yet to meet that legendary "Noble Savage".

Then there is the subset that is making hay on anglo-guilt. They are the ones who take offense if you can't identify their tribe while never even starting to attempt to identify what kind of Caucasian they are talking to (i.e., all whites are the same, but you better not ever call a member of the Southern Ute Tribe "Mountain Ute"). They are the ones that accosted a young man of my acquaintance who happened to have long straight hair and beat him up for "cultural appropriation". These are the ones that object to the names of sport teams that "degrade" their heritage while getting falling down drunk on St Patrick's Day and trying to talk in some gibberish that is supposed to be an Irish accent. The things that separate us are way less important that the things that connect us.

On average the subset that joined the United States of America is markedly happier than the subset that posts on their i-Phone that they want all whites to leave this continent, preferably in boxes.

PEDARRIN2,
I have to ask: Where do you stop apologizing? I don't know your heritage, so I'll use myself as an example. Somewhere in my ancestry, say around 1200 AD, there is a young woman in eastern Europe. One day a Mongol rider came across her in a field and raped her. The child of that event is another of my ancestors. I have a couple of drops of blood from that rapist. Does that obligate me to apologize for the excesses of Genghis Khan and his troops? Maybe pay reparations? It doesn't matter that one ancestor was the rapist and the other was the victim of rape does it? I have genetic material from a 10th century rapist. I should show shame? Think that one is a stretch? I am pretty sure that there are Roman Centurions in my ancestry. Those guys were pretty rapey, burney, killey too. It shames me that those guys were my fore-fathers. Maybe I should pay reparations to the Gauls? Oh, yeah, they were pretty nasty in their turn as well.

My point is that if I act in a way that respects the rights of people currently alive and respect the potential for future generations then I'm done. I don't have any obligation to atone for anyone else's sins. I don't apologize for slavery in the U.S. or for the blacks in Africa that rounded up the people to sell into slavery. I don't apologize for Wounded Knee or the Little Big Horn. They are past and everyone directly affected is long dead--I can honor their memory by not committing rape or murder, not by apologizing for something that I had nothing to do with.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[DekDee]

I did not want to enter this discussion for reasons BI stated - this is not a political forum.

However, some of the comment is over the top.

If the Native Americans life is so unaffected by history why do they live on "RESERVATIONS" ?

I am a New Zealander so a million miles away from what is going on but I am an avid reader of history.
Americans past treatment of Native Americans does not make pretty reading.

 

[BigInch]

I don't mean this in any way offensive, but yes, I do believe that you don't know how to deal with it. Question now is, do you want to learn how to deal with it, or are you happy as things are?

 

[hydtools]

zdas04, your comment about the Southern Utes caught my attention. I see we are near neighbors, I live just north of the Southern Ute reservation.
There has to come a time when the past is history and we live in the present for the future.

Ted

 

[zdas04]

DekDee,
First, about 22% of people derived from 8 full-blooded "Indian" great grand parents live on the reservations. That percentage gets smaller every year. If you drop the number to 4 or more full-blooded Indian great grandparents the percentage drops to under 1%. The other 99% have elected to join the United States. These numbers are similar for the Palestinians that elected to enter the camps in 1948 rather than live in Israel. Second, the people who have elected to remain have done so for their own reasons and I've had many conversations with people in this category and have found that their reasons make sense to them (taking care of their mother, taking care of their siblings, can't imagine a different life, as many reasons as there are people).

The world has seen the poverty on the reservations, and gauged it against first world values. I know many people who don't see their personal lot as impoverished, the things they have are more important to them than the things they don't have, family is a really big deal for many of the people I know. I also know many people who do live in what they consider to be squalor because of their life choices (alcoholism and drug addiction are higher on several of the reservations than the population at large). Just like any culture there is no one answer to any question. Many people live on RESERVATIONS because the RESERVATION is their HOME, and it is inappropriate for anyone to sneer at them for that choice.

Western culture has not been kind to the people who were here when Europeans arrived. Just like the people who were here when the Europeans arrived were not kind to the people who were here when those people arrived. Just like Western culture was not kind to the Polynesians or the Australian Aborigines. Just like the 10th century Jhidists were not kind to Europe. Just like the Apache Tribe was not kind to the Navajo peoples. Expanding cultures are not kind. Never have been. Never will be.

BigInch,
There never was a statement that started with "I don't mean this in any way offensive" that wasn't offensive in the next breath. Go ahead, be offensive. Tell us how your vision from across the sea provides answers that people living in close proximity with the issues can't see. But first. Please define what "it" is? I don't think I follow the referent. Are we still talking about DAPL or "how the white man continues to wrong the Noble Savage"? I just wrote several thousand dollars worth of checks to purchase permission to drive on several reservations while the tribal members have free access to roads that my tax dollars built and maintain so maybe I am too close to the issues to see how very wronged they must be. Please tell us what the problem is and how to fix it.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[BigInch]

Why write the cheques?

The problem is not unique to the zdas cabbage patch. There are people, native or otherwise, in many parts of the world, that I have personally rerouted pipelines to avoid entirely. What I don't understand is the tendency of the majority of American and Canadian pipeline companies to attempt to ignore serious cultural aspects and the consequences of poor pipeline routing. It is nothing short of rediculous. It is obvious why there are so many protests.

 

[zdas04]

No check, no crossing permit. No crossing permit and if you visit a well on that reservation they confiscate your vehicle. Kind of a big price to pay.

I also have rerouted pipelines to avoid problem land owners and surface issues. I have never seen a pipeline company "ignore serious cultural aspects". Ever.

The DAPL was VERY carefully routed to avoid the current limits of the Standing Rock Sioux reservation. And instead of the Class 2 archaeological survey (i.e., literature search coupled with surface observation around the documented sites) required by law they did a class 3 survey that required walking the entire route and preliminary excavation of any questionable sites, they rerouted to avoid dozens of them. At the site of the protest there have been extensive previous surveys that found nothing. The fabricated issue of the Ft. Laramie treaty of 1868 was an 11th hour Hail Mary when none of their other fabricated issues were carrying water. In 1877, the treaty was changed from "the government will leave them alone" to "the government will feed them" and one of the considerations for the change was an alteration of the boundaries. Without the change most of them would have starved. In previous centuries the drought that caused the problems would have set the tribe off on a mission of conquest. Instead they traded land for food. Seems like adequate compensation to me. Seemed like adequate compensation to a dozen courts as well.

There are so many protests because the eNGO's and the Democrat machine are providing a salary to the organizers and agitators of the protests, and hundreds of well-meaning idiots will pile onto any fabricated band wagon. On the DAPL, 80% of the people who have been arrested and/or cited for little things like shooting handguns at police from very short range and destroying private property and cattle rustling have been from out of state. Only 3% are Indians. None were from the Standing Rock tribe. Go back and look at photos from the Keystone XL "protests" and compare the faces to the DAPL "protests". It is impressive how many of the same faces, vehicles, and licence plates you see. The protesters are simply paid activists.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[BigInch]

What kind of trade is land for food? Killing all the buffalo put them in that situation. Land for food is adequate compensation? That's fair? Afraid not. That's just stealing land. Arguments based on reasons that today are recognized as genocide and war crimes isn't going to get you far.

Democrats? Yes. I guess they are at the bottom of everything.

I'd still like to know why they couldn't manage to make one or two more reroutes. On the BTC project (Turkey) I had 750 archaeologic reroutes alone, not counting all the others for Anatolian faulting and the usual mountains, rivers, modern villages and cemetaries, in 1400 km, that's about 1/mile. Where is the report? Has it been published. Why has North Dakota keep the route as secret as possible. South Dakota has published the route and even provided the Google Earth file. Energy Transfer's website shows county maps, but the scale of the map is so small you can hardly tell what counties it goes through. BTW that is common to all pipeline company website maps. Where's the KML file. Isn't it a bit strange that there are so many reroutes off the reservation, but they can't make a couple more when they get near the reservation. What's going on there?

 

[DekDee]

zdas,
While you are quoting figures of how many people are "rent a protesters" can you please let us know how many Maori (New Zealands indigenous people) have travelled half way around the world to join the protest and support the Sioux people.

Can you also please explain if this is just a protest organised by Democrats with paid activists why the motion to support this protest was tabled in the NZ parliament by two of the minor political parties .
Obviously this motion was never passed as the NZ government would be stupid to try and get involved in Americas internal politics but it shows that this issue is being seen world-wide at the moment.

I have worked on many pipelines as a welder, welding inspector and radiographer and one question that has come up many a time in discussions is "Would you build a house on or next to the pipeline easement" (we call it ROW) and the answer was a resounding - No !

So what is wrong with the Sioux saying "You can have your pipeline but you go around us, not under us" ?

6.The bore is designed to be 90 ft below the river

90 ft or 900 ft - if there is a leak it will still make it's way to the surface or into the water table/aquifier !

 

[zdas04]

DekDee,
When you bore under a river you have a hole in the ground that the pipe goes through. A leak in the pipe will take the easiest path which of course is along the pipe instead of through the rock. 90 ft of separation is about 50 ft more than is necessary to keep a leak out of the river.

THE PIPELINE DOES GO AROUND THE RESERVATION. Why can't you understand that. They are protesting a route on a rancher's property, said rancher was compensated for the disruption of his property and has stated that he is satisfied with the compensation. The claim that this was once their land and that their ancestors made a bad deal when they released it is just so much nonsense that they thought up after the other 8 excuses were debunked. EVERY PLACE ON EARTH was once someone else's property that was taken from them by force or fast dealing. I bet the house you live in is on land that was once considered the property of the Maori. What would you do if someone from the tribe knocked on your door and said that he didn't like the deal from 200 years ago and you have to get out?

I have absolutely no idea how many people have traveled from New Zealand at their own expense to join this Burning Man (look it up) like event. I know a woman who drove to the party from California in a 1960's vintage VW van (and she didn't see the irony in driving a gas guzzler to what is basically a "keep it in the ground" protest). So what? A party will attract party goers.

As to what fringe politicians will do? Who can explain anything they do? Not me.

BigInch,
I trade my labor for food. My parents sold their farm because it couldn't feed our family. That was trading land for food. What the heck are you talking about? This revisionist history is getting tedious. It is so very easy to apply 21st century sensitivities to 18th and 19th century decisions, but it is so very inappropriate.

What part of "if they move the line one more time the protesters would simply move the protest camp" are you not understanding? There is a point where giving in to criminals and terrorists is far worse than standing your ground.

I don't work for Energy Trading Partners or the state of Norh Dakota. I don't have any information about their databases or their web sites or their maps. They have done 140 re-routes AFTER THEY STARTED PURCHASING Right of Way and had permits in hand. I have no information on how many changes to the route they made to avoid faults and known arch sites before the first preliminary route was chosen, it wouldn't surprise me if it was a similar number to your Turkey project. I don't know where the report is, I've never made that kind of report public, have you? I have seen very detailed maps of the pipeline route in North Dakota, but I'm not working on that project so I didn't care. Why do you? Are you going to re-route it for them? I'm sure they would appreciate the input since they are clearly too stupid to know how to route a pipeline that is nearly finished. This is way past ludicrous.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[moltenmetal]

You can see how complex this issue is in the US, where there were actual wars of conquest, i.e. the US Army was deployed against groups of native people in battle, defeated them, and drove them by force off the land they had previously possessed.

Imagine how much more complex it is in Canada, where other than the Metis uprising in Manitoba in the 1890s, there were just alliances and treaties made between the French and English with one First Nation or another, generally in aid of a war between the French and the English or later the Canadians and the Americans. There really wasn't a war of conquest by the Europeans over the First Nations- the actual "conquest" wasn't a conquest at all, but rather a series of treaties made between nations. That's why we call them the First Nations- and most people don't understand the fullness of what that means- in a sense, Canada is a federation which includes thousands of nations, some of which have tens of thousands of members, and others which are really just an extended family group who have historically lived in a particular geographic region.

If you look at human history, there are numerous places where conquests happened and are now permanent and more or less forgotten. There are numerous others where conquests happened centuries ago, but the local population do not accept it, with the results ranging from merely being impolite to one another in conversation to actual armed insurrection. So it goes in the relationship between the First Nations and the governments and populations of the US and Canada. I would expect that there will still be major problems related to this relationship a century from now.

End of story.

 

[hokie66]

Protesting is free speech, but this is vandalism.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/14/dakota-access-water-protectors-endanger-rivers-lea/

 

[BigInch]

It's not that simply delineated. Maybe it's collateral damage that could have been easily avoided entirely with a relatively simple route change. It did not have to happen. I've been doing pipelines for 40 years and I have never seen a more stubborn approach to routing than was taken there. There is no excuse for selecting the final route that they did. Tell me what reason they had to say the route had to be pegged as they did? Because they could? All pipelines will have to overcome the bad publicity. Bad Business!


Reaction to change doesn't stop it

 

[hokie66]

I think, in regard to the rubbish, it is that simple. Regardless of the pipeline routing decision, there is no excuse for that sort of behaviour. Those who left that behind were not genuine environmentalists, or genuine Sioux. These people have done nothing to even make the most of us consider their cause, whatever it is.

 

[BigInch]

I think you're needlessly focusing on some relatively minor (but I do agree inexcusable) results, while not giving much thought to the cause, or preventing such things in the future. I'm interested to see if we can we (re)learn some lessons from this?

Actually we know all the lessons already and have learned all the preventative measures. It's clear that here some players did not want to apply the lessons learned. Bad Business! Maybe if we offer them tax credits they'll come around. Nothing else seems to work.

Bad Business! Seattle and NYC are already looking to boycott banks that have anything to do with this project. Not very effective at this point, because the deals have already been done a long time ago, but I think they will certainly look for these things in the future. I'm sure others will be thinking the same thing. If you think pipelines are good, why aren't you interested in eliminating bad business practices. This kind of stuff only makes it that much harder for us pipeline engineers to design and build new pipelines next year.

Reaction to change doesn't stop it

 

[hokie66]

I freely admit that I don't know much, if anything, about pipeline routing. But I do find that the crowds who protest about this type of thing invariably include a lot of ratbags.

 

[BigInch]

On the BTC pipeline back in 2002 I made over 300 reroutes for the 1400 km pipe in Turkey. Not usually a big deal. It might have something to do with them being treated like rats.

I would be most interested for someone that truely knows this pipeline routing criteria to tell me WHY this pipeline had to cross the contested land where it did and why there were no viable alternatives. That's the key to pipeline routing.

Reaction to change doesn't stop it