Standing Rock Turned Down 18

[bimr]

Let this be a guide:

Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? - Groucho Marx

 

[hokie66]

That is indeed the problem. In the few cases in my life when I have witnessed something that made the news, it was never reported the way my eyes saw it.

 

[weldstan]

My brother was often interviewed by the press. He used to say that if they got the story more than half right, it was a victory.

 

[Krausen]

Gentlemen,
For anyone on this forum who believes the AP is a credible news source please take note that I am in the real estate business specializing in Arizona ocean front properties. Please contact me if interested.

Tolerance & apathy are the last virtues of a dying society -Aristotle

 

[rconner]

I'm not sure political debates really have any good end, so oh well I will at least start with the obligatory. My sister-in-law is a Native American (making my nephew half-native American), and I have been told my whole life my brothers and I had some Native American blood of our own from at least my mothers side. I also believe many Native Americans have been treated very badly in history, whether it be through subjugation of conquerors seemingly long ago (as have incidentally many other peoples in world history since time immemorial) and/or use as pawns plied with beads, guns, firewater or even up to the present day protest expenses or worse. Early on I guess it was we're the White Man and we're here to help, but now some also "we are the Government and we're here to help". I also believe we should protect the land, as best we can leaving it as we found it (as I have attempted to teach my own children), and think that many Native Americans and environmentalists around the world feel the same. My aunt was furthermore from North Dakota and she and my uncle loved the quite rough/wild outdoor country of there, and later Northern Minnesota. I've spent some time there myself. It is also quite possible many past protests, environmental impact and archaeological reviews etc. have been significant factors in the end (at least where prolonged/total obstruction was not the result) in a result of better routing, as well as better, safer pipelines.

That doesn't mean I don't have conflicting opinion in these cases, as one might just as easily say why would extremely rich, modern-day railroad barons cozy up to previous administrations and their collective special interests (using their influence to effectively prevent or delay completion of pipelines?), even to the point of going along with or blessing their seemingly popular with the left/progressives schemes of "soak the rich"!
In most cases of even best intentions, when it gets right down to it it costs money to protest and live (and most of us have a job, limiting how much protest we can do or want to do!) and maybe particularly in rough/remote country, so one probably/unfortunately has to "follow the money" and that every which way, to have any hope of understanding what is really going on? There is also a fine line between help and enabling. I wouldn't be a bit surprised however if my more Native-American relatives, who incidentally are as well or likely more educated than I am, disagree with me. Whoever is heavily funding the protests should probably at least help with the cleanup of the protesters mess when it is all over.

While it can be argued we all have special interest, I also believe pipelines are a quite efficient and generally at least to the present day relatively safe way of delivering the goods (that are likely to be delivered one way or another, that might in the end be worse, at least until better energy source is available for transport etc.) An interesting case study was/is of course the massive Trans-Alaska Pipeline system, that I believe is now in its 40th year of service (as ALYESKA"), and that has delivered more than seventeen billion barrels of oil in that time frame. The oil and pitch from the rich North Alaska site was incidentally being used by natives long before anyone ever thought of piping it. While I know the pipeline had its own protests and no doubt some "environmental impacts" and other bad effects that continued or continue for a quite long time, and there have also been relatively few incidents involving same over the years, it is nevertheless hard to argue with at least the economic impact of same (that can be observed on Wikipedia and many other sites - and I believe has been in decades since also been a major factor in why Alaska for decades and to the present day has the very lowest combined/effective state and local tax rates in our nation)!
All have a good weekend.

 

[BigInch]

At the risk of the above question,
why would extremely rich, modern-day railroad barons cozy up to previous administrations and their collective special interests (using their influence to effectively prevent or delay completion of pipelines?), even to the point of going along with or blessing their seemingly popular with the left/progressives schemes of "soak the rich"!
being rhetorical, or for the informatin of any news reporters reading this later, it is

BECAUSE, pipelines are really not in the oil and gas business. They are extremely efficient, cut throat competitors to railroads, ... both of which are in the transporation business. If the commodity is oil and the pipeline is installed first, you will likely never see a railroad constructed there at all, ever. Since rail is there now, railroad barons want to block any new pipelines at any cost.

Reaction to change doesn't stop it

 

[3DDave]

Most interesting to me is the concept that the oil pipeline route is considered a safe route because an electrical transmission line and a natural gas pipeline are already there. It seems weird to think that either of those is a comparable water or soil pollution hazard. I get that gas pipelines sometimes detonate in spectacular fashion, but it doesn't seem like the logic works.

 

[dik]

"The bad times coming statement" was a concern about politicians overriding, what hopefully was a well thought out engineering opinion on, a significant topic with little or no thought except that 'we want to do this'.

Dik

 

[BigInch]

3DDave, I agree that parallel routing in a designated utility corridor is not necessarily safer, even more so when the pipeline carries oil and the risk is contamination of water supplies. Perhaps the only reason it might be safer is that people might be more aware that pipelines are there and be more careful, but I think "people" don't know a whole heck of a lot about anything, especially when digging around pipelines. There is also more potential for adjacent pipeline's cathodic protection systems to interfere with each other as well as nearby high voltage cables inducing voltages and current into adjacent pipe. These things can be mitigated, but only if potential problems are picked up in time. Work conducted on an adjacent pipeline might also damage both pipelines. It wouldn't be the first time that happened. Contractors working near and around pipelines do cause a high percentage of pipeline damages, some of which does not become apparent until years afterward.

Reaction to change doesn't stop it

 

[bimr]

Regarding: Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.”

This phrase stinks of fakery and was obviously never written by Aristotle. It is commonly misattributed to Aristotle, by white supremacists, neo nazis and their ilk. He never said that.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090516003631AAcNoXS

 

[hokie66]

Maybe a bit of levity would help this thread. Reportedly a Corps of Engineers plane.

 

[3DDave]

Not the worst.

 

[Krausen]

Fair enough bimr. I'll replace this disputed/misattributed quote with one that is not. Hopefully the tolerant liberals will tolerate this one. Cheers bud!

Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions -GK Chesterton

 

[BigInch]

bimr, good call. Quote stank to high heaven.

Pictures are both FAKES.
Where's the "N" numbers.

Reaction to change doesn't stop it

 

[hokie66]

Of course mine is a fake. Geez.

Not sure about the grated one.

 

[bimr]

The airplane photos are air exhibits not fakes.

 

[3DDave]

Second one is horrifically real. A plane was started in a hanger and got away.

 

[zdas04]

I came across this extract from testimony from Joey Mahmoud, Energy Transfer Partners’ Project Director for the Dakota Access Pipeline before the U.S. House of Representatives’ Energy and Commerce Committee (transcript should be available on committee's web site). The only non-subscription source I've found was Natural Gas Now. I found the testimony to be enlightening.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[hokie66]

"the recently departed Administration" is the best news in that story.

 

[bimr]

zdas04, that article may be true, but it can clearly be labeled as preaching to the evangelical choir.

Unfortunately, science seems to be antithetical to most of the majority party. Mr. barton (U.S. House of Representatives’ Energy and Commerce Committee) does not have that humble reasoning you desire.

Chairman barton is notarious for making this statement.

"Now, wind is God’s way of balancing heat. Wind is the way you shift heat from areas where it is hotter to areas where it is cooler. That is what wind is. Wouldn’t it be ironic if in the interest of global warming we mandated massive switches to energy, which is a finite resource, which slows the winds down, which causes the temperature to go up? Now, I am not saying that is going to happen, Mr. Chairman, but that is definitely something on the massive scale. I mean, it does make some sense. You stop something. You can’t transfer that heat and the heat goes up. It is just something to think about."