Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... 38

[1503-44]

Of course that works, but more expensive. 2 fuel handling systems, and as you note, large oil tank, or two, extra space for heat radiation, dikes, road access, foam fire protection, emission controls, blanketing system, more drainage water, oily water tank, surface drainage to larger holding pond, spill prevention and control plans, lighting, maintenance of all above .. you see where that goes.
Obvious why gas fuel is the choice. Better to ask a pipeline company to build you a new pipeline and pay for it gas rate payment plan. One from the north, one from the south. Problem (mostly) solved.

But do not cut off power to the gas companies.
There are a few anhydrous ammonia pipelines.
And hydrogen pipelines might be in the works some day.

 

[cranky108]

Yes, a secondary fuel is a big problem, but that fuel storage is one of the differences of a coal plant and a gas plant. By saying a gas plant is cheaper to build and operate, without including the fuel storage aspect, it is not a true compair of equals. Same with solar and wind.
To me it looks like what so many people are doing. By saying it's green and ignoring the stability and fuel storage aspects, it is creating a problem, and this is just a wake up call.

If gas is the way we are going, then we need more storage, and better heat tracing, and better identifying the interoperability of it with electric.

 

[1503-44]

It isn't a comparison of equals. Just the opposite. You have to utilise the different characteristics of each type to their maximum advantage when putting together your system. That's why differences exist. Each type performs a specific function. Caterpillar makes 15 different dozer models. The only thing similar is their color. An airline can't function with a fleet only comprised of 747s, nor an electrical grid with just nukes. But that's been known for thousands of years. Romans and Carthege had infrantry, archers, artillary, horse cavalry, camels and elephants. The elephants had a harder time than horses crossing the Alps. Camels did better than horses in the Sahara. Elephants made a terrifying charge, but then ran off in their own panic in all directions. System design is just like rock, paper, scissors. did well in cold climates.

 

[CWB1]

If gas is the way we are going, then we need more storage, and better heat tracing, and better identifying the interoperability of it with electric.

Or do we just accept that customers can live without power for a few days upon occasion?

 

[dik]

With time... the situation is likely to get worse... these once in a lifetime events are becoming more frequent.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

One could choose to buy their own generator, if they have a place to install it. I suppose it just depends on how much someone values having 3 days a year of UPS. Personally I'd take a lesson from Ted; drain the pipes and go to Cancun for the week.

 

[cranky108]

Sounds great, as long as you are not a board member at ERCOT.

Yes a few day outage each year is not a big deal, unless you are the news media. So what is expected? What is allowed? Who should provide for the backup?

And likely we will hear crickets on those questions.

 

[dik]

Texas alone had over 100 fatalities attributed to this cold snap... what's a few days, anyway...

From one news source:
"Harris County, home to Houston, reported 10 deaths from hypothermia and more than 600 cases of carbon monoxide poisoning as of Friday. Harris County Judge Lina Hidalgo shared the update on Twitter, writing, “This was a man-made disaster that has cut lives short. When the dust settles, people deserve answers and accountability.”"

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

Thank you for reminding us that the vulnerable suffered as usual. Not everyone can do a runner and head out to Cancun. There were many people that went without power in freezing houses for well more than 1 day.

 

[FacEngrPE]

If the plan is for the power to be out for a few days, then there is a huge amount of seemingly minor items to deal with. Can we tolerate all of the traffic lights being dark, or do they need alternate power?

During Isabel (Aug 2003), in tidewater VA critical traffic lights had 5 or 10 kW gasoline generators connected to them. There was some evaporation, so it was not too long before all of the generators were chained to lightpoles.

Less critical traffic lights just went dark, and we struggled with that. Only about 10% of the fuel stations could pump gasoline.

 

[CWB1]

Texas alone had over 100 fatalities attributed to this cold snap....Harris County, home to Houston, reported 10 deaths from hypothermia and more than 600 cases of carbon monoxide poisoning...

Attributing both of those to a cold snap is a pretty big stretch. I'd love to hear specific cases that didn't involve much larger risk factors. Critical infrastructure is well protected stateside, and at the end of the day 15F isnt frigid weather.

Traffic lights being out isn't uncommon, and often an improvement.

 

[1503-44]

Harris County, home to Houston, reported 10 deaths from hypothermia.

"Attributing both of those to a cold snap is a pretty big stretch".
So, they just happened to be walking past Ben & Jerry's when the store exploded covering them in 10T of freezing ice cream?

 

[RedSnake]

I wonder about this with gas as heating, how does it work?
We have virtually no such systems here.
Is it waterborne heating or is it air ??

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[LittleInch]

Mostly air I believe because in the summer you pump cold air and in the winter warm air.

Domestic AC is rare in Northern Europe so we tend to use water filled radiators as the standard or underfloor heating using water.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

In its basic form it works off a 230v switch off a thermostat which when closed activates the gas burner and circulation pumps.

More advanced systems can have multiple zones which can selectively off or on.

The latest tech has a management system to get the burner into condensing mode then regulate the flow temp for a specific heat input.

It's very common in UK and basically anywhere that they have domestic gas mains.

I can fit an aux burner to my heatpump system that will fire up when gas is the cheapest method of heating the house or water basically if I need a feed of over 45 Deg c. I haven't got one though but there is connections to the hydraulic disconnect tank to cater for it.

 

[RedSnake]

With this system you heat water or?
With a water based system it should be the same principle as burning, wood, wood pellets, oil or having a electric heater.
I saw some air heating system but then it stil was connected with water more like a heat exchanger.
Or are there systems that only heats air?

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[waross]

The cheapest and so the most common furnace in Canada uses a hot gas to air heat exchanger.
A thermo-couple in the pilot light generates enough power to activate the main gas valve.
A low voltage thermostat swwithes the gas valve on and off.
A second temperature switch starts the fan when the heat exchanger comes up to a suitable temperature.
This also provides a cool down period after the gas flame is off.
As well. it incorporates an over-temperature safety lock-out.
The hot air is ducted to various rooms an the house.
When whole house A/C is installed, an evaporater is installed in one of the main air ducts and the furnace fan and the existing ducting is used for A/C.
There are newer, more sophisticated systems, but there is an installed base of millions of this type of furnace.
My current home has a high efficiency furnace that still uses the same basic control system.

In addition to deaths by hypothermia, I imagine that even more people avoided hypothermia by buying portable propane heaters and died from CO instead of hypothermia.

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[1503-44]

Carrier Residential HVAC systems typically found in Houston.

https://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/heating-cooling/

 

[JohnRBaker]

Yea, our son in Katy (about 25 miles West of Houston), his house is quite large (he had four daughters, but only three are still living at home) and they have two furnace/AC systems, one for the ground floor and one for the second floor.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[zeusfaber]

Anna, the most common system in the UK has a combustion-gas to water heat exchanger and pumps water through that and into a two pipe heating system that runs through the building. Wall-mounted "Radiators" in each room are connected between the feed and return pipes and act as water to room air heat exchangers.

The burner is fan-blown and the primary heat exchanger is so efficient that it condenses moisture out of the combustion gas which has to be collected and periodically discharged to a dedicated drain.

The central heating loop is maintained at constant pressure using a bladder accumulator.

Finally, to provide domestic hot water, a water to water heat exchanger is fitted within the boiler casing between the feed and return lines, with a diverter valve (which controls whether the circulation pump draws its suction from the central heating return pipe, or from the domestic hot water heat exchanger.

All components - combustion chamber, circ pump, heat exchangers, accumulator, gas and diverter valves, condensate syphon and control electronics are integrated within the boiler casing. The only external components are the radiators and (usually) a thermostat. Required services are gas, electricity and cold water (for recharging the accumulator, and to heat to provide domestic hot water).

A.