Texas power issues. Wind farms getting iced up (Part II)... 38

[1503-44]

I don't think it is a question so much as regulation vs deregulation, but more of system design and control.
One thing I know for certain, is my pipelines wouldn't work very well, if anyone was allowed to build any kind of pump station wherever they pleased, leaving me to try to manage pressure and flow to meet the demands at the various tanks, terminals and connections by letting speculators set the price of pressure at the pump stations, other speculators setting the price of fuel, with the weather randomly throwing in monkey wrenches anywhere it chooses. That would be pretty much like how deregulation as practiced in TX today interferes with running a super critical and very highly complex system. The known variables are controlled by mother nature, or are entirely random, and there are more than enough unknowns already without trying to mix in as many more random variables as you possibly can. That's control by Brownian motion at best, but more likely that there is nobody behind the curtain at all. Meanwhile any opportunistic anteater digging the termite nest easily picks off all the little buggers that come running out wondering what the heck is going on.

Fisch,
Step back a second and look at what you actually wrote. Either you made a typo somewhere, or the snake is eating its tail.
TX has an unregulated/deregulated market yet it is that very market that is allowing green power to squeeze out gas/oil/nukes.

 

[RedSnake]

As I understand it many in Tx use gas for house heating, is there a gas market?
And if,
Is it separate from the electrical market place?

Best Regards A

throwing in monkey wrenches, anteater digging the termite nest easily picks off all the little buggers



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

Free market I do not know if there really is such a thing as a free market.
The EU is a free market, but before you can sell anything, it must meet all requirements and standards.
So how unregulated it is, it is still regulated in a sense.
If you have a free market for, say, for potatoes, then I as a consumer have the choice not to buy potatoes if the price is to high.
But when it comes to gas or electricity, that choice disappears more or less.
If a market is to function as a free, unregulated market, there must be many producers and consumers must have a choice.
But without requirements and standards for producers, a free market for gas and electricity will not work because consumers cannot choose not to buy when prices are to high.

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[BrianPetersen]

Historically here, electrical power generation and distribution has been handled through Crown corporations. The distribution part of it is partially privatised now, and it remains to be seen whether privatising it as opposed to leaving it fully as a Crown corporation is a good long-term move. Ontario Power Generation remains a Crown corporation.

I don't know if anything equivalent to the structure of a Crown corporation exists in the USA.

 

[waross]

I guess that I am mistakenly comparing privatization of Crown corporations with deregulation.
We didn't hear about deregulation before privatization.
This has happened in a few provinces.
The promise has been lower prices for the consumer.
The reality has been higher prices for the consumer.
I expect that the entrepreneurs and politicians pushing for privatization are first in line to buy up the privatized Crown assets.
And the rich get richer.


Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[RedSnake]

We didn't hear about deregulation before privatization.
This has happened in a few provinces.
The promise has been lower prices for the consumer

When it comes to other state owned things much have been sold out like railroad, nothing got better trains don't come and go on time due to bad maintenance, it's difficult to buy tickets havening to go between different companies.

Here the state still owns the mayor power providers and many county's also own power company's.
Built and payed for with tax money, but then the the profits made helps keeping the taxes down.
They still sell and buy on the market place.
But here there is many rules to abide by.

Best Regards A

 

[dik]

Where life safety issues are at stake, deregulation is bad. Case in point, people freezing to death in the recent Texas debacle, the Boeing 737 Max and the over half a million deaths due to the Coronavirus. People freezing to death in a civilised country because of a failure of infrastructure, is beyond the pale.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

The gas and electric markets are separate, actually very separate. Here is the scarey bit. Natural gas producers and gas spot markets are not regulated.
Local distribution companies are regulated by the Public Utility Commissions, or other some such agency in each of the 50 states.

No government agency is charged with the direct oversight of natural gas producers day to day business activities. Production and marketing companies must operate legally; i.e. producers must obtain the authorization and permitting before beginning to drill, particularly on federally-owned land, however natural gas prices are determined by market forces. A market that is not regulated by the government.
NYMEX operates a futures exchange, thus futures trading is governed by their trading rules.

https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/commodities/ng:nmx

Yes, upsetting the termite nest, otherwise known as the "Mideast Peace Strategy".

 

[Fischstabchen]

dik,

You are conflated unregulated markets with no regulations. That isn't the case at all. An unregulated market is merely an open market where power is bought and sold. Regulated markets are where power producers get fixed rates of return.

These rolling blackout did happen in regulated regions as well.

 

[dik]

and the fatalities, too?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Fischstabchen]

Dik,

Yes, there were fatalities in those regions as well.

Why does feel like you are conflating several issues to obscure the fact that you aren't familiar with a lot of items in this thread? Deregulation has its pros and cons but I am not even sure you know what deregulation even is.

 

[RedSnake]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/

deregulation
noun [ U ] ECONOMICS, POLITICS
UK /ˌdiːreɡjəˈleɪʃən/ US
the process of removing government controls or rules from a business or other activity.

https://www.dictionary.com/

deregulation
[ dee-reg-yuh-ley-shuhn ]SHOW IPA

noun
the act or process of removing legislative controls or restrictions from an industry, commodity, etc.:

Best Regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Fischstabchen]

Redsneak,

You don't have to go this route. You know well enough that industry definitions are not going to be defined in a dictionary.

 

[RedSnake]

I am to old, and my experience tells me, that assumptions is the mother of all fuckups.

Misunderstandings of words is one of them, or people having different perception of what they mean.

I have had production technicians who believes that commissioning is the same thing as producing .
I guess you understand what the result of that was.

You would not call a relay a contactor or a light curtain a light barrier.

It is no criticism of you.

But the discussion becomes meaningless if the words do not mean the same thing to everyone who uses them.

Best Regards A



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[1503-44]

Don't argue about definitions. Ya'll know what happened. And I have not seen one publication, or any shread if evidence that even implies one iota that REGULATION caused this mess. That throws the spotlight on deregulation. Now we know what it is.

 

[Fischstabchen]

1503-44.

You are conflating the unregulated electrical markets with natural gas security. They are two seperate things and why you saw blackouts in Oklahoma and Louisiana, which have regulated electrical markets.

 

[dik]

"Of the around 70 deaths attributed to the snow, ice and frigid temperatures nationwide, more than a dozen were people who perished in homes that had lost their heat, and most of those were in Texas. They include an 11-year-old boy who died in his bed in Conroe, near Houston, and two older men found dead in their homes in the small West Texas town of Buffalo Gap in Taylor County." Texas is #1...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Fischstabchen]

Dik,

I don't understand what you are saying has to do with unregulated electrical markets. Most people in the U.S. live in unregulated markets. It is not something that can't be made to work.

 

[1503-44]

Please see post 14 Mar 21 09:47

"Electricity Market" is the commercial trading aspect.
The grid suffered blackouts, but, rightly, or wrongly, functioned as designed.
If that is to function better, design standards will have to be enacted and enforced. Some apparently call that part "regulated", as gas pipelines are under CFR TITLE 49 Parts 192, 194, et al.

The TEXAS "electric market" is the only thing that truely failed and it went ballistic.
Other regional markets did not respond to blackouts with a 10,000% price increase.
Are we supposed to expect that 10,000% price increase every time demand exceeds supply?
If not, apparently the electrical market needs to be regulated, or better regulated.
10,000% price increases are not acceptable.

PIPELINE DESIGN must conform to provisions of
TITLE 49 CFR Subchapter D - PIPELINE SAFETY, specifically,
PART 192 - TRANSPORTATION OF NATURAL AND OTHER GAS BY PIPELINE:
MINIMUM FEDERAL SAFETY STANDARDS (§§ 192.1 - 192.1015)
PART 193 - LIQUEFIED NATURAL GAS FACILITIES: FEDERAL SAFETY STANDARDS (§§ 193.2001 - 193.2917)
PART 194 - RESPONSE PLANS FOR ONSHORE OIL PIPELINES (§§ 194.1 - 194.121)
PART 195 - TRANSPORTATION OF HAZARDOUS LIQUIDS BY PIPELINE (§§ 195.0 - 195.591)
PART 196 - PROTECTION OF UNDERGROUND PIPELINES FROM EXCAVATION ACTIVITY (§§ 196.1 - 196.211)
PART 199 - DRUG AND ALCOHOL TESTING (§§ 199.1 - 199.245)

Getting back to "regulation" of Grid Design issues, please tell me which CFR applies to design of Electrical Systems, Grids and Generation Facilities?
Here are the list of CFRs.

CFR: TABLE OF CONTENTS
Title 1 - General Provisions
Title 2 - Grants and Agreements
Title 3 - The President
Title 4 - Accounts
Title 5 - Administrative Personnel
Title 6 - Domestic Security
Title 7 - Agriculture
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality
Title 9 - Animals and Animal Products
Title 10 - Energy
Title 11 - Federal Elections
Title 12 - Banks and Banking
Title 13 - Business Credit and Assistance
Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space
Title 15 - Commerce and Foreign Trade
Title 16 - Commercial Practices
Title 17 - Commodity and Securities Exchanges
Title 18 - Conservation of Power and Water Resources
Title 19 - Customs Duties
Title 20 - Employees' Benefits
Title 21 - Food and Drugs
Title 22 - Foreign Relations
Title 23 - Highways
Title 24 - Housing and Urban Development
Title 25 - Indians
Title 26 - Internal Revenue
Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
Title 28 - Judicial Administration
Title 29 - Labor
Title 30 - Mineral Resources
Title 31 - Money and Finance: Treasury
Title 32 - National Defense
Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters
Title 34 - Education
Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property
Title 37 - Patents, Trademarks, and Copyrights
Title 38 - Pensions, Bonuses, and Veterans' Relief
Title 39 - Postal Service
Title 40 - Protection of Environment
Title 41 - Public Contracts and Property Management
Title 42 - Public Health
Title 43 - Public Lands: Interior
Title 44 - Emergency Management and Assistance
Title 45 - Public Welfare
Title 46 - Shipping
Title 47 - Telecommunication
Title 48 - Federal Acquisition Regulations System
Title 49 - Transportation
Title 50 - Wildlife and Fisheries

 

[FacEngrPE]

The answer, - at least the FERC part is
TITLE 18—Conservation of Power and Water Resources, CHAPTER I—FEDERAL ENERGY REGULATORY COMMISSION, DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

https://www.ferc.gov/enforcement-legal/legal/federal-statutes.

It is not clear if this is helpful.
OSHA Regulations 29 CFR 1910.269 - Electric power generation, transmission, and distribution.
Appendix G to § 1910.269-Reference Documents includes a list of relevant IEEE documents, but does not clearly indicate if they are included by reference.

H.R.5146 - Power plant and Industrial Fuel Use Act from 11/09/1978 does seem relevant as it allows the Secretary of Energy to require power plants and large boilers to have dual fuel capability.

I completely agree this was a Market Failure. I wounder how much entertainment we will get as the court suits over the payments for power at $9,000/kWhr are resolved, and who will be left standing.

It is possible to have a regulated utility and a power market coexist, and have a stable pricing environment. PJM has some heavily regulated utility, and some that are significantly less regulated in the same power market. Power does on the average cost a bit more than Texas, but after averaging in the winter storm price spike, it might not. It looks like the appropriate period for averaging Texas power prices must be the entire period the market has existed, or the impact of price upsets is left out.