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That'll teach em. 15
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Slugger926
Bioengineer
"And they solve actual problems. A little too close to actual engineering work...."
They are more like technicians. They program routers and internet equipment.
They don't size power cables, worry about designing the HVAC systems, worry about structural loading of their cables, worry about fire codes, or worry about the structural loading of the building they are putting their equipment in.
I have taken some of their classes. It was cool, but not engineering.
You should see some messes these microsoft certified technicians have created accross the country inside various companies.
They are more like technicians. They program routers and internet equipment.
They don't size power cables, worry about designing the HVAC systems, worry about structural loading of their cables, worry about fire codes, or worry about the structural loading of the building they are putting their equipment in.
I have taken some of their classes. It was cool, but not engineering.
You should see some messes these microsoft certified technicians have created accross the country inside various companies.
At some level, we are all just technicians. We are not "creating" anything new, just putting together different components, and making them work.
Let's not get too full of ourselves here. If we aren't careful, we will start sounding like doctors. They have this overinflated sense of themselves, yet all they do is patch us up when we're hurt. They are glorified mechanics, with a lot of schooling.
Let's not get too full of ourselves here. If we aren't careful, we will start sounding like doctors. They have this overinflated sense of themselves, yet all they do is patch us up when we're hurt. They are glorified mechanics, with a lot of schooling.
- Thread starter
- #24
However, the issue is that you would not go the "Rug Doctor" to fix your hurts.
And the AMA doesn't even bother to worry about that possibility, so the "Rug Doctor" happily coexists with real doctors. And I'm sure that many MD's are Rug Doctor clients and vice-versa.
TTFN
And the AMA doesn't even bother to worry about that possibility, so the "Rug Doctor" happily coexists with real doctors. And I'm sure that many MD's are Rug Doctor clients and vice-versa.
TTFN
IRStuff,
Are you saying that anyone should be allowed to refer to themselves as an engineer as long as they have some carefully worded title? If Microsoft (or anyone) is allowed to refer to their various employees as engineers, then the title "engineer" will no longer have any meaning. Why then have licensing or universities or BSCE, BSME, BSEE, etc degrees at all? All we have to do is go find someone on the street, hire them, train them the way we see fit and give them the "engineer" title. Because thats what will happen if we allow companies like Microsoft to do as they please.
Are you saying that anyone should be allowed to refer to themselves as an engineer as long as they have some carefully worded title? If Microsoft (or anyone) is allowed to refer to their various employees as engineers, then the title "engineer" will no longer have any meaning. Why then have licensing or universities or BSCE, BSME, BSEE, etc degrees at all? All we have to do is go find someone on the street, hire them, train them the way we see fit and give them the "engineer" title. Because thats what will happen if we allow companies like Microsoft to do as they please.
- Thread starter
- #27
My board went after some "domestic engineers" (house cleaners) but backed down after figuring there was no confusion. "Certified engineer," however, is a bit close in my opinion.
EddyC,
This is not Microsoft calling it's own employees engineers under the industrial exemption. They are selling the title to anyone who has the cash and can pass a set of exams.
EddyC,
This is not Microsoft calling it's own employees engineers under the industrial exemption. They are selling the title to anyone who has the cash and can pass a set of exams.
Rug Doctors have no degrees whatsoever. There's no confusion here and no one is offering cut-rate surgery at the local Rug Doctor.
Likewise, there's no confusing an MCSE for a "real" engineer. They couldn't possibly offer nor perform ANY electrical, civil or mechanical, etc., engineering.
Frankly, anyone who does go to an MCSE for licenseable engineering work is a blithering idiot and would probably get ripped off no matter what happens, since the law is spottily enforced at best and someone that idiotic WILL find a fake PE to get himself ripped off. There was recently a website offering to sign off drawings, allegedly by real PEs. BUT, the rates advertised would have these guys spending less than 10 minutes per drawing to make any money to speak off.
TTFN
Likewise, there's no confusing an MCSE for a "real" engineer. They couldn't possibly offer nor perform ANY electrical, civil or mechanical, etc., engineering.
Frankly, anyone who does go to an MCSE for licenseable engineering work is a blithering idiot and would probably get ripped off no matter what happens, since the law is spottily enforced at best and someone that idiotic WILL find a fake PE to get himself ripped off. There was recently a website offering to sign off drawings, allegedly by real PEs. BUT, the rates advertised would have these guys spending less than 10 minutes per drawing to make any money to speak off.
TTFN
Slugger926
Bioengineer
"IRstuff (Aerospace) 18 Oct 05 1:59
Rug Doctors have no degrees whatsoever. There's no confusion here and no one is offering cut-rate surgery at the local Rug Doctor.
Likewise, there's no confusing an MCSE for a "real" engineer. They couldn't possibly offer nor perform ANY electrical, civil or mechanical, etc., engineering.
Frankly, anyone who does go to an MCSE for licenseable engineering work is a blithering idiot and would probably get ripped off no matter what happens, since the law is spottily enforced at best and someone that idiotic WILL find a fake PE to get himself ripped off. There was recently a website offering to sign off drawings, allegedly by real PEs. BUT, the rates advertised would have these guys spending less than 10 minutes per drawing to make any money to speak off.
TTFN"
I know lots of managers and upper management that wouldn't know the difference. It is the non-engineers in management that need educated on what engineers are. These are the same guys that hire a "engineer" through a temp company that has no background or degree and think they are getting a better deal than hiring the college grad out of school with his engineering degree for a few extra $$.
Rug Doctors have no degrees whatsoever. There's no confusion here and no one is offering cut-rate surgery at the local Rug Doctor.
Likewise, there's no confusing an MCSE for a "real" engineer. They couldn't possibly offer nor perform ANY electrical, civil or mechanical, etc., engineering.
Frankly, anyone who does go to an MCSE for licenseable engineering work is a blithering idiot and would probably get ripped off no matter what happens, since the law is spottily enforced at best and someone that idiotic WILL find a fake PE to get himself ripped off. There was recently a website offering to sign off drawings, allegedly by real PEs. BUT, the rates advertised would have these guys spending less than 10 minutes per drawing to make any money to speak off.
TTFN"
I know lots of managers and upper management that wouldn't know the difference. It is the non-engineers in management that need educated on what engineers are. These are the same guys that hire a "engineer" through a temp company that has no background or degree and think they are getting a better deal than hiring the college grad out of school with his engineering degree for a few extra $$.
And is getting rid of MCSEs going to make these managers smarter? And wouldn't it be pretty obvious that when someone like that hires an MCSE to do structural engineering that there's a huge disconnect?
McDonnell Douglas used to hire college grads irrespective of degrees or capabilities even before there was a Microsoft, so can't really lay that one on Bill's front step. One July, we got a brand spanking new BS computer science grad from USC. The fact that we did no programming, had no computers to speak of and that we were primarily a semiconductor physics group didn't seem to enter into the allocation equation.
But I digress... What's my motivation for helping an idiot like that? Do I really want to make it easier for such a dunce to keep his job by making sure that he can't make hiring mistakes?
Fire his ass and help him get a decent job at McDonald's is what I would vote for. I think it would make for a pretty good laugh if someone like that did hire an MCSE to do electro-optical systems engineering. Would make my day ;-)
TTFN
McDonnell Douglas used to hire college grads irrespective of degrees or capabilities even before there was a Microsoft, so can't really lay that one on Bill's front step. One July, we got a brand spanking new BS computer science grad from USC. The fact that we did no programming, had no computers to speak of and that we were primarily a semiconductor physics group didn't seem to enter into the allocation equation.
But I digress... What's my motivation for helping an idiot like that? Do I really want to make it easier for such a dunce to keep his job by making sure that he can't make hiring mistakes?
Fire his ass and help him get a decent job at McDonald's is what I would vote for. I think it would make for a pretty good laugh if someone like that did hire an MCSE to do electro-optical systems engineering. Would make my day ;-)
TTFN
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AngeloPapadakis
Structural
First of all, I will state that I am not believer in any State, Provincial or Territorial board or association having the right of ownership to a word in the English language when used as part of a title, legislating that it can only be used by those who are licensed to carry out work in the various branches of engineering. Engineering being interpreted as what some of the people here perceive it that is. The boards and associations should concern themselves more with the misconduct and incompetence of some of their members.
However, there are some of you, and you know who you are, that insist on getting their knickers in a knot over this issue. Since the MCSE seemed to have been the whipping boy here, let’s look at him. Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is not misleading to me. The words Microsoft and Systems tell me that the guy is in the IT business and the word Certified, being where it is placed in the title, tells me that Microsoft has certified him as being able to engineer networks using their products. The word Engineer however, certainly doesn’t make me lose sleep thinking that this guy is going to get involved in tall buildings or bridges when things are slow. Furthermore, his title is a little more imaginative and descriptive than “real” engineer.
The first time your local EMS network is down and brought back up pretty quick, give guys like these some credit as the do really engineer networks. You would be surprised what runs under Windows these days.
As a closing comment, a little professionalism is lost on some of the egotistic and snobby attitudes here. A four year degree, three Greek letters on a sweatshirt and membership in an association does not always make a good engineer. The comments regarding the medical profession, I won’t even acknowledge.
Angelo D. Papadakis P.Eng ( C.Eng, M.I. StructE.)
Slugger926
Bioengineer
Angelo
Those microsoft guys aren't engineers. I work with plenty of them. They won't be engineers until they start taking into concideration of the HVAC loading, power cable sizing, infrastructure, and ect that their equipment is housed in.
They should be called Microsoft IT Certified rather than Engineer.
I have had to clean up to many messes created by Microsoft Certified people that has created dangerous situations that they don't even realize they are creating. I have seen floors overloaded and nearly collapsing on the floor below due to too much equipment being installed in a facility by a Microsoft Certified Engineer or a Cisco Certified Engineer. These guys need to open their eyes and realize they are network programers and designers.
Those microsoft guys aren't engineers. I work with plenty of them. They won't be engineers until they start taking into concideration of the HVAC loading, power cable sizing, infrastructure, and ect that their equipment is housed in.
They should be called Microsoft IT Certified rather than Engineer.
I have had to clean up to many messes created by Microsoft Certified people that has created dangerous situations that they don't even realize they are creating. I have seen floors overloaded and nearly collapsing on the floor below due to too much equipment being installed in a facility by a Microsoft Certified Engineer or a Cisco Certified Engineer. These guys need to open their eyes and realize they are network programers and designers.
AngeloPapadakis
Structural
Slugger,
The situation you described cannot be blamed on the Microsoft guy as there was clear lack of planning and communication between the parties involved. The Microsoft guy's job was to engineer and install his networking equipment. It was not his job to do an analysis on floor loading. A structural engineer should have been involved. The whole issue is, these Microsoft guy's, by using the word engineer in their title were not professing to say the floors were structuraly adequate for the loading conditions. They do there thing, other types of engineers are called upon, or should be, to do theirs.
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- #37
There are ABET accredited four year programs in computer and software engineering. But a high school dropout who can pass a set of exams gets a title that sounds equivalent. And to what purpose? Simply to make him/her sound deserving of a higher salary or position. I don't mean to sound egotistical or snobbish. Maybe a better word is uppity for daring to suggest engineers are like other professionals. I really consider us all to be equal on this planet, but our worth as measured by salary is set by the market. False titles are a market manipulation tactic. But it goes way beyond money and gets into safety concerns when unqualified people are tempted to work outside their area of expertise.
Ah huh… I should go and tell the high school kids to get their Structural Certificate of Engineering from some structural engineering society so they can call them selves Structural Engineers. I know this is absurd, but that is what Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer sounds like. Somebody got certified by a company to have the title Engineer. Our (USA) government does not even recognize them as Engineers. So why should they have the title?
If a title does not really matter, then why are non-engineering degree people so up in arms about not having the title of Engineer in their title? Designers should not be embarrassed to have design in their title, techs should not be embarrassed to have technologist in their title, draftsmen should not be embarrassed to have draftsmen in their title, …what is so embarrassing about not having the title of engineer in your title? They will still be treated and paid the same, engineering title or not.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
If a title does not really matter, then why are non-engineering degree people so up in arms about not having the title of Engineer in their title? Designers should not be embarrassed to have design in their title, techs should not be embarrassed to have technologist in their title, draftsmen should not be embarrassed to have draftsmen in their title, …what is so embarrassing about not having the title of engineer in your title? They will still be treated and paid the same, engineering title or not.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
GregLocock
Automotive
I'm gunning for Clue Distributor.
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