That'll teach em. 15

[AngeloPapadakis]

The point is still being missed here. During my career, I have been site superindant on many projects. I have always found that treating everyone as an equal, regardless of their skill or trade or what they choose to call themselves, makes for a pleasant and healthy work environment. This always culminates in a very successful project completion. This is what engineering is all about. Forget the title thing. For those who disagree, don't ever go to work in Britain...you will spend more of the productive day arguing over titles than keeping your mind on the task at hand. I know what I can do, you know what you can do, that should be reward enough.

 

[AngeloPapadakis]

stevenal,

I should add that the Microsoft guys were more than likely instructed to place the equipment as specified by someone else. Doesn't that tell you something? They are not getting into areas beyond their expertise.

 

[Jordonlaw]

AngeloPapadakis says:-

"Don't ever go to work in Britain...you will spend more of the productive day arguing over titles than keeping your mind on the task at hand"

As an engineer working in Britain for over 25 years I've never come across this attitude so I think some evidence needs to be presented.

 

[RDK]

A true IT engineer, i.e. someone with an ABET accredited degree and membership in an engineering association, should have enough cross discipline experience and knowledge to know that he should ask a structural engineer about floor loading.

That is the difference between an engineer and someone with only some technical training. Engineers know at least enough about the other disciplines to know that they should be asking them some questions and ensuring that the final solution is safe and workable from all perspectives, Someone with only technical training, in one field, simply does not have this background to know when to ask someone else for help.

Engineers know that engineering is a team activity.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Slugger926]

Rick you beat me to the post.

I have seen those issues first hand too many times. The someone with only some technical training tends to think that they know everything while the engineers acknologes they only know a specialised area in a vast sea.

 

[AngeloPapadakis]

RDK,

I have never worked on a project where the IT guys place their equipment where ever it takes their fancy. Locations are specified on drawings and floor loading has been taken into account by the appropriate person. This is where engineering is a team activity. Another storm would brew if the IT people dared question the structural integrity of the floor.

 

[AngeloPapadakis]

Jordonlaw,

I will attempt to clarify my statement in the form of an explanation. In the U.S. and Canada, licensed engineers are, for the want of a better term, very particular as to the use of the word “engineer” in a job title. Rightly so I might add, as in most, if not all States and Provinces it is unlawful to use this title unless one is a Licensed Professional Engineer. Anyone who is not licensed, even with industry exemption, meaning someone not providing services to the public, can be brought before the courts and fined if they use the word “engineer” in their title. These actions should be restricted to any individual who falsely represents themselves as being licensed and offers services to the public. Personally, I don’t agree with the ruling solely on the word use as I think it is a trivial matter but that’s just my opinion.

As you will be well aware, the use of the word in Britain is widely used in may job descriptions ranging from tradesmen to licensed professionals and, being from Britain myself, was used to this and never at any time did I take offense, hence my opinion on the use of the word in a job title. An example of this would be the tradesman installing the HVAC system would routinely introduce himself as the heating engineer.

My statement about spending half the day arguing about titles was in reference to many of our Canadian or American colleagues who may have difficulty accepting this as being normal and generally accepted.

 

[EddyC]

I get to meet many telecom "engineers" who will place equipment anywhere, with the disclaimer "I'll do whatever my employer wants". This is what happens when someone is not under the state code of ethics and doesn't really know what engineering is. These technicians get introduced to the building owners as "engineers" while I, a PE, get introduced as an Architect (Which I constantly correct). One of these "engineers" asked me what Dead Load was. I told him that it was the self weight of the building. He still didn't know what I was talking about. Someone who is a real engineer would have understood.

 

[stevenal]

They are not getting into areas beyond their expertise.

This is universally true? I'd hesitate to make that claim even for PEs universally. What mechanism is in place to avoid it? Is there an MCSE code of ethics that places their certificate on the line if they violate it?

 

[AngeloPapadakis]

EddyC,

There is something missing in the examples I am reading. If equipment would impose loads of questionable magnitude on the floor, since when is it the telecom guy's employer's call as to where it is placed. There seems to be important players who should be making these decisions missing on some of these projects.

All I am saying is the telecom engineer or the network engineer isn't hoodwinking anyone into believing he is something he is not by using these job descriptions.

 

[kchayfie]

Structural engineers should be employed to work on structures. Electrical engineers should be employed to work on electrical projects. Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers should be employed to work on Microsoft Systems.

I'm a chemical engineer and I suspect you'd be better off getting an MSCE to look at your floor loading or your power cable size than asking me to do it, even though I've got a degree and I'm allowed to use the title engineer (OK so not quite yet according to your rules, but it won't be too long off and I'll still not know any more about those subjects!)

Being an MSCE doesn't necessarily mean you are stupid. Being a PE doesn't necessarily mean you are smart enough to ask for help.

 

[AngeloPapadakis]

Stevenal,

I agree that there are some PE's in certain diciplines who might cross their borders of expertise just enough to raise concern even if it is bad judgement rather than blatent misconduct. The MCSE however, regardless of calling him/herself an engineer, isn't any more likely to dabble in structural engineering any more than you are.

 

[AngeloPapadakis]

Well said kchayfie,

Dirty Harry was of the same opinion with his line..."Every man should know his limitations"

 

[Slugger926]

The problem with some in the telecom world is they forget that anything (gravity, electrical loadings, earthquakes, ect...)exists outside of their piece of equipment and configuring it.

I have replaced alarm equipment in a flood prone area where the equipment was placed underneath the floor. You can guess what happened everytime it flooded, the alarms wouldn't report problems because they went down before the equipment. I have seen structural damage after earthquakes where beams were pulled from the wall, but Cisco Certified Engineers were still trying to stuff equipment into the facility. I have seen HVAC problems from these same guys all over the world. These same guys forget about physical security as well, but they do remember the software security.

 

[IRstuff]

Again, it's not the job of an MSCE to do the structural analysis. Almost any installation where that might be a problem has at least a facilities coordinator whose job it is to ask about and check these sorts of things.

Obviously, the MSCE should say, "Oh, BTW, you do realize I'm adding 5 tons to the floor load?" But, when the bid and proposal is made, the customer has the ultimate responsibility to realize that there's more weight being added. If the customer doesn't raise a concern about floor loading, I think that the MSCE has a reasonable basis for assuming that the floor loads are acceptable.

For that matter, how the BH would an MSCE come up with unstacked IT hardware that exceeds 100 lb/sq ft flooring loading?

TTFN

 

[wes616]

Some people need a big truck... others are ok with driving a honda.

Wes C.
------------------------------
In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson

 

[Slowzuki]

In Canada the word engineer is protected due to the liabilities professionals assume here. I know Britain's liability rules are different despite being a base for our court system.

A professional in Canada is held to a higher standard of law with respect to tort and negligence. I agree electrical and computer engineering have to lowest dollar value claims made against them but the principle is to prevent dilution of the term engineer. An engineer has a duty to protect the public, a MSCE has a duty to make some cash. A MSCE would not face disciplinary actions for violating the engineering code of ethics.

I have found computer techs to have some questionable ethics, including those working on systems that protect the public. In their defence, a group called C.I.P.S. is attempting to create a professional organization with ethical standards and organization for the IT world. For some jobs this obviously isn't required but think of some of the computer hardware and software in our daily lives that affects public safety.

>Personally, I don’t agree with the ruling solely on the word use as I think it is a >trivial matter but that’s just my opinion.

 

[Slugger926]

"electrical and computer engineering have to lowest dollar value claims made against them but"

They may have the lowest dollar claims because most people never realize or see what happens when one of their systems fail. It may be poor programming that allows identity theft, or mis-routing of a 911 call that costs time in an emergency.

Their failures can be as divistating as a bridge falling down, but the destruction can't be viewed with helicoptors on the nightly news.