Titles: Engineer vs. Designer 25

[haggis]

This has been beaten to death in the past but let's get some opinions.

Of course it makes perfect sense as to whether some of us have to be degreed or licensed depending on what field of endeavor we enter. But…..Let’s all get over the title thing as to whether one is entitled to call him/herself an engineer rather than a designer. As long as nobody misrepresents themselves as being degreed or licensed and practicing as such when in fact they are not. True, some jurisdictions have already reserved the title “engineer” solely for those who are licensed and it is wrong.

The American Medical Association have not yet objected to the terms lawn doctor or tree surgeon simply because these people are not implying they have a degree or a license.

At the end of the day if we’ve designed something that is of benefit to our way of life and done so in a safe and responsible manner, we can choose to say if we wish, we engineered it. Degreed, licensed or otherwise, we have all earned it and the number of years I have spent in the engineering community, I still find that we learn from each other constantly.

 

[haggis]

A low blow EddyC

"Its about a group of people that missed out on licensure and now want to say that its not really needed, in order to feel good about themselves."

Myself, I could have grandfathered in a while ago but saw no advantage. Now, being near retirement, it's hardly worth it. PE is not something one gets just for the sake of having it. As for lots of other people who took part in this discussion, (sometimes near argument, LOL) I suspect that most are young and for reasons of their own, see no point in attaing PE status. You seen fit later in your career if I'm not mistaken and may have benifited from doing so. It does'nt go for everyone and it certainly is not a duty.

BobPE

Nearing the end of this topic I think, and as in your last reply, glad to see that it is with an amicable demeanor. You almost had me convinced at one point, then I gave my head another shake!

What contraversy can I stir up next?

 

[EngJW]

Yeah, I'm bailing out and going over to raise a little hell in the thread about working long hours! He He. At least until it gets 160 posts long.

 

[EddyC]

haggis,

I suggest the following controversial topic:

"Should There Be Engineering Licensure In The USA?"

This one would be sure to draw in quite a few diverse opinions just like this current thread has done. And I'm not pulling your leg, I'm serious.

 

[haggis]

EddyC

Are you kidding? Another 15 rounds with BobPE

 

[EddyC]

haggis,

Things that could be discussed include:

a) Should any engineers be licensed?
b) Should all engineers be licensed?
c) Should licensing be only for some disciplines or all?
d) Should licensing be for only some industries or all?
e) Should licensing be federal?
f) Should licensing be individual, corporate or both?

You know how me and BobPE feel about this, but the purpose of the forums is to exchange ideas & opinions for the betterment of all. Or are we all tired of talking about this issue for a while?

 

[BobPE]

EddyC:

I started a pro and con of licensure post over in the where will engineering bein 5 years forum....

It is off to a slow start, but gaining momentum...LOL...

haggis....15 rounds is a walk in the park...LOL

Bob

 

[buzzp]

Having worked on both sides of the fence; consulting and product design, they define them differently.
In the consulting world, it seems, designers are really drafters and engineers are engineers. In the product design world, designers are engineers, engineers are engineers, and drafters are drafters. So if one has only worked in one area, they only see one side and this causes a lot of confusion.

Most arguments on this subject are do to ignorance of engineering in general, not only specific to the engineering "you know". Engineers are those with a degree. Licensed engineers are those engineers that are licensed to perform services for the public. Other engineers, perform services for the private world (other companies).

 

[patdaly]

Thank you Buzz.

 

[buzzp]

Your welcome!

 

[BobPE]

buzzp:

What is your definition of "other engineers?"

Bob

 

[haggis]

Good morning BobPE

Hope you had a nice July 4th.

I think buzzp means me and my kind....industry exempt.

Haggis

 

[BobPE]

hey haggis...had a good 4th here, hope yours was good too....Back to the grind however....LOL

I wanted to dig into buzzp's comments to see if he was thinking "other engineers" could consult outside of their industry exempt company.....Just a probing question....I find a lot of people are confused when it comes to this exempt gray area....


you take care,

Bob

 

[haggis]

In Texas I hear it's unlawful to call ones self an engineer unless one is a licensed PE.

I wonder if Casey Jones was commiting a Federal offence by using the title while crossing state lines.

 

[BobPE]

haggis...if Casey was on the train, he was industry exempt...lol

Bob

 

[buzzp]

Industry exempt Bob. I know more about both worlds than most. So there is no confusion here.

The ignorance comes from those that have only worked in consulting their whole career or only worked under the industrial exemption their whole careers. I have found many consulting types (PEs) who believe that any engineer needs to have a PE to practice engineering, period. This is not the case.

 

[BobPE]

buzzp:

I too worked in both worlds, it should be the case, believe me....That is why i soapbox like I do...If I can get more people to see the light at the end of the licensure tunnel, we all would be better off for the effort....


I do agree though, extremists on both sides do seem to have the most trouble recognizing that we are all engineers in the boat together...I have found many exempt types who believe that no engineer needs to have a license to practice engineering, period. This is not the case either...

Us in the middle need to find the common ground for all to get to....or we will all suffer in some way...


Bob

 

[EddyC]

I have worked in both worlds too and prefer industry to the AEC sector. But I do think that the AEC folks are correct in promoting licensure.

 

[patdaly]

BobPE,
Lets try this tack a bit differently.
You make the statement that all engineered consumer goods should be done so only by registered PE's. This means that everything from the venerable golf ball to a 787 Dreamliner would be covered by your edict.
Now, what benefit is to be gained, other than an increase in the salary of an Engineer in doing so? Will golf balls be any safer? Can you prove that the 787 Dreamliner will be any safer? How about the new Ford 500? Canada makes great fanfare of their registration and strict enforcement, but let me ask the board, what type of manufacturing innovation and efficiency do they have? I spent almost 3 years off and on in Canada, and the regulatory baloney manufacturers went through to remain in business made me swear off ever going back. To be sure, it is a beautiful country, and people there were as intelligent as anywhere else in the world I have been, yet they have to have absured protection laws to remain in business. Is this the type of future you envision for the USA?
Quick and dirty, you are a PE. You have the opportunity to create a better widget, the only rub is it is only marginally safer than your competition. You know if you only added 4 interlocks that would slow the operation and add 15 percent to the cost, you could provide a product that would virtually eliminate the risk to the user.
What do you do?

 

[buzzp]

Bob,
I would be interested to here about your industrial exempt positions in the Civil engineering field. Specifically, what did you do? I was trying to think of any civil engineering position which would not fall under doing work for the public. I can not think of any. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

 

[BobPE]

Lets see, I worked in a glass plant and got to play with the fluid mechanics of molten glass with natural gas fired and electric furnaces, natural gas, compressed air, wash water utilities design, high volume (500,000acfm and larger) ducted air handling systems and various other goodies. I also worked for a cardboard box maker and printer. Thixotropic and other wonderful non-newtonian fluids, heat and mass xfer for ink drying, shear sensitive pump system designs and just general BS engineering.

I took my skills learned there in industry and brought them with me to consulting where I use them every day. I do see the difference in the extreme exempt engineer and the extreme licensed engineer....I like the middle ground, but think that a license is an improvement for ALL engineers...

I am an environmental engineer...i wouldn't know how do design a road if I fell on one....my degree was based on a mechanical engineering program...so I am probably not the best example of a true civil engineer....but that is what I do now...water and wastewater engineering, mostly hydraulics when I am not stuck in the management rut...

I still consult a lot for industry and I love every minute of it. You guys just have to come to grips with these crazy ass schedules you make us conform to!!! Can you do anything about that?????

I do think my industrial experience gives me an edge over my peers...no doubt. And I know that many of you in the exempt world, if licensed, would kick the pants of a lot of the engineers in my business as well as in your own business...

Bob