Toyota Landcruiser V8 turbo diesel engine. VDJ 14

[danielerror]

Could a twin turbo Diesel engine (1VD-FTV) run for 10,000kms after having been dusted? The symptoms were excess oil usage under load (towing). I've been told by an automotive engineer that was impossible but the vehicle seemed to be in a slow decline, not a sudden drop in performance.

 

[dgallup]

Tell us what you mean by "dusted".

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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[EdStainless]

There are a lot of things that can fail gradually in an engine, such as reduced lubrication.
It could take a while for things to degrade enough to cause total failure.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube

 

[IRstuff]

Any single "automotive" engineer's opinion isn't necessarily meaningful; since you apparently felt that "excess oil usage" is a new thing, then I would submit that it is a "sudden drop in performance."

Just because it hasn't completely died, it doesn't mean that there's nothing wrong; excess oil usage is certainly a warning sign. Nevertheless, you could, with proper maintenance from now on, keep it running for a long time, but it's probably unlikely to have the same performance/life as one that didn't get "dusted."

Usually, oil "usage" means that you're blowing oil through the seals and into the exhaust, so as a minimum, your exhaust system smog controls are going to suffer, as well as your ignition system. If you haven't flushed your oil completely, there still may be teensy bits of metal roaming around, which can lead to excessive wear.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[danielerror]

This is a great help thank you for the input. I went to NCAT with my expert witness and he told the member (judge) that a dusted car would quickly get a low oil pressure warning light. My submission was based on the low oil warning coming on when I towed a caravan, three months into ownership. Ive asked him to tell the judge that dusted doesn't equal oil light but he has refused to admit this point. He will change his submission to the judge by taking out one word "quickly". I believe that the judge now believes dusted = low oil light and I have lost the case based on this. Can anyone help me?

 

[MintJulep]

Not likely.

 

[gruntguru]

Your expert witness is not an expert in this instance. A "dusted" engine is likely to consume oil more rapidly, however if you check the oil level and replenish frequently, the oil light may never come on.

The oil light illuminates when oil pressure drops below a threshold. "Dusting" an engine does not usually create significant wear in components that can cause reduced oil pressure during normal operation - oil pump and bearings. The only effect on the oil light is when excessive consumption causes the oil level to drop below the oil pickup. This usually takes many miles and will not happen if the oil gets topped up.

je suis charlie

 

[miningman]

And I still dont know what dusted means in this context. If you and your expert cant put your concerns into conventional english , no wonder you failed to convince the judge

 

[GregLocock]

I'll put in another vote for having no idea what 'dusted' means in context, despite 40 years in the automotive engineering game.



Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Tmoose]

I'm sorry for the difficulties with your Landcruiser.

What was the case you were trying to win?
Were you trying to make the case that someone "dusted" your Landcruiser, or perhaps that oiled foam high performance air filter did not perform properly?

Google got a bunch of hits for "dusted" all related to particulate matter getting into the intake bypassing the air filter by various means.
Some hits sounded quasi main stream, perhaps even approaching customary.

So you ran it out of oil while towing, and the oil light came on?
And you had confirmed it was a the proper level before starting the trip ?

Or, when you first acquired the vehicle 3 months ago, you checked it, or assumed it was at the proper level and have been driving it ever since?

I seem to recall an old piston ring tech article saying a spoon full of grit, all at once or over time, would severely damage the cylinder walls and cause oil consumption and lost compression.

I think the appearance of the oil light would be a much delayed indication of excessive oil consumption, and lacksadaisical owner participation. Not a direct result of "dusting."

I doubt most kinds of grit directly dumped into the sump could take out bearing and cause enuff wear to lower the oil pressure to 3 psi or at whatever pressure the oil light comes on.

 

[danielerror]

Thanks for the reply's, I purchased the 200 series diesel LandCruiser to tow a caravan. The first time I towed with the caravan immediately following a service the low oil warning came on. LandCruisers have a seperate oil pressure dial, pressure seemed ok. I thought that the service must have got the oil level wrong. So I topped up and monitored after every trip. Vehicle seemed to be using 2L/100km only when towing. I googled it and google said they use more oil when towing. I took it to a diesel mechanic who said I think it's been "dusted" due to finding dust lining the intake but filter was clean. I hadn't driven the car on dusty roads, so I took it to Toyota who told me I needed a new engine due to excessive blow by. I contacted the dealer and they said I had driven 10,000kms so they wouldn't help. I've had a civil case with proof that the car had been using oil before I bought it but my expert said in the case that "a dusted engine would get a low oil light quickly" can I prove him wrong? Following his logic my car once dusted should have always had a low oil light until I got the car fixed.

 

[IRstuff]

And why did you send "your" expert to this judge knowing that he was going to give contra-information?

Has someone actually endoscoped the cylinders? What about your oil and oil filter?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[miningman]

I strongly suspect the the OP is not going to get any satisfaction on this forum, nor in a court of law / arbitration. Sounds to me he bought a vehicle with an extremely defective engine and drove it for almost 10,000 km without initiating documentation as to his dissatisfaction with his purchase. Burning really excessive oil volumes tells me the engine is shot. An air intake with a clean filter but dust within the intake tells me someone changed out the old dusty filter, installed a new clean one and failed to remove other evidence of previous abuse.

And an oil analysis today would be interesting but would not provide any info usefull in a claim against the selling dealer. Looks like he bought a vehicle with a defective engine but its not illegal to sell such a vehicle.. Caveat emptor!!!!

 

[MintJulep]

Check the vacuum pump.

http://www.motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=113

 

[danielerror]

Hi IRstuff I didn't know he was going to connect dusting (excessive blow by) and a low oil warning.

"And why did you send "your" expert to this judge knowing that he was going to give contra-information?"

The car has been fixed, all left hand cylinders with excessive wear and a worn out LH turbo, surprisingly the oil checked out ok when sent to a lab. The compression was down on three cylinders reading ok on the rest.

 

[danielerror]

Hi MintJulep, my 1VD was a 2013. The talk of excessive oil usage in earlier cars is one of the reasons I took so long to get it diagnosed. I tried a few things first, different oil I had read Penrite semi 5w 40 had fixed peoples oil usage issues. That didnt work so I had a catch can and a jackmaster oil filter fitted.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Miningman the car seemed fine to drive at first it was when I put a caravan on it used 2L/1000kms (Toyota book says 1L/1000kms is ok) and over the course of the 10,000kms it lost power but it never felt extremely defective should it of? I honestly dont know how it was supposed to feel. Ive had it fixed and it doesn't really feel much better.

In Australia if a dealer sells a car advertised as fit for purchase it should be without major faults.

 

[danielerror]

Thought you might be interested, the Automotive Engineer is willing to write a letter to the judge stating:

Following receipt of the Orders from the NCAT chairman, which are quite detailed.
I wish to confirm the following.

The statement Mr ------ said , when the oil light comes on , that tells you there is a problem with oil pressure and he said it was correct that upon an engine being dusted the light would come on quickly with or without towing any thing.

The statement is correct except for one word “Quickly” which should be deleted
with the final line reading “that upon an engine being dusted the oil light would come on regardless of whether the vehicle was towing anything or not .

I don't feel he is doing enough to seperate the oil light and the dusting.

 

[MintJulep]

Your approach of discussing peripheral topics using vague and undefined colloquialisms seems sub-optimal, and has likely already lost the case for you.

Deleting an unquantifiable adjective will not improve things.

Your assumed case seems pretty clear.

"A dealer sold me a vehicle with an easily identifiable defect and I want them to pay for the repair."

Your argument lays out thus:

I bought a vehicle from ??? with the expectation that it was fit to perform the services identified in the operating manual.
After using the vehicle for some time, in accordance with the operating manual, I became aware that the vehicle had a defect.
The defect is engine oil consumption in excess of the maximum rate identified in the operating manual.
When I presented the excess oil consumption to "Toyota"? they performed a simple test that confirmed there was an engine defect.
This test should have been done by ??? before they offered the vehicle for sale.
???'s failure to perform this test resulted in their offering an unfit vehicle for sale.
I want ??? to pay for the repair.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Mintjulep

My apologies for being vague. If you are talking about when I said "it never felt extremely defective should it of?" to clarify I was replying to miningman and quoting his previous comment. I'm honestly sorry if it seems I'm trying to discuss things that are not relevant, I am not meaning to but I don't know what is appropriate, I have no idea about engineering.

Your summery of my argument is spot on. The only variation, I was advised I would have to prove that damage existed before I bought the car. I did that via phone calls to the mechanic that serviced the car previously who confirmed the car was burning a lot of oil before it was sold.

From the recording of the case: the judge said: Mr Expert Engineer is saying you would expect the oil light to be an issue if the damage had been done. He replied yes to the judge.

He is correct in that you might get a low oil warning but I think the judge has connected them and I don't know what to do to get them unconnected for her.

Thanks again for your help, it's amazing how quick people are responding here.