Toyota Landcruiser V8 turbo diesel engine. VDJ 14

[danielerror]

Could a twin turbo Diesel engine (1VD-FTV) run for 10,000kms after having been dusted? The symptoms were excess oil usage under load (towing). I've been told by an automotive engineer that was impossible but the vehicle seemed to be in a slow decline, not a sudden drop in performance.

 

[MintJulep]

What you need now is a lawyer, not engineers.

 

[danielerror]

Hi MintJulep

I think you are right, I was hoping I could resolve it technically without having to force the situation with lawyers.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Compositepro]

The way you win when lawyers are involved is that you have more money to spend on lawyers than your opponent. The first one to run out of money loses.

 

[MintJulep]

I did that via phone calls to the mechanic that serviced the car previously who confirmed the car was burning a lot of oil before it was sold.

This makes your argument even stronger.

(assuming that this 'In Australia if a dealer sells a car advertised as fit for purchase it should be without major faults' is actually true.)

I bought a vehicle from ??? with the expectation that it was fit to perform the services identified in the operating manual.
After using the vehicle for some time, in accordance with the operating manual, I became aware that the vehicle had a defect.
The defect is engine oil consumption in excess of the maximum rate identified in the operating manual.
When I presented the excess oil consumption to "Toyota"? they performed a simple test that confirmed there was an engine defect.
The mechanic who serviced the vehicle for the prior owner confrimed that excess oil consumption existed prior to my buying the vehicle.
??? could have contact the mechanic who serviced the vehicle for the prior owner and discovered this defect.
This test should have been done by ??? before they offered the vehicle for sale.
???'s failure to perform this test and research the vehicle's past maintenance history resulted in their offering an unfit vehicle for sale.
I want ??? to pay for the repair

Notice that nowhere in this argument is the word "dusted" used nor is the oil light mentioned. Because those things are irrelevant.

It's not clear who advised you legally in the preparation of your claim, but whomever it was has botched things up.

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

^not true necessarily. You have to manage your lawyer and your case. Research case law and put it in their lap.

You can be your own lawyer and come out on top. Thing :stroke of genius.

Op, a few things can be going on. I had this problem once with a cbr600rr. Clutch fiber clogged oil filter. Oil viscosity maybe, but not sure on that one. Electrical problems with the gauge. Also oil consumption and low compression can be sticking rings. I switched from conventional to syntheric in my turbodiesel and oil consumption dropped way down and no more smoke.

A boreoscope in the cylinder is a must. Dirt getting past the air filter will cause piston and sometimes bore wear. In my drz400, i bought it worh a poor fitting air boot. Dust got in and piston wore but nicasil liner was ok. Piston slap was loud. Replaced puston and it was fine.

If bore is ok, drop oil pan, remove cylinder head, undo rod bolts, replace piston, assembly reverse of disassembly.

Oil pressure can be an electrical problem. Please confirm with mechanical gauge.

All this could pitentially have been caused by some dummy putting in gas engine oil.

Get a service manual. Look at the oil diagram.

Engineering student. Electrical or mechanical, I can't decide!
Minoring in psychology

 

[danielerror]

Hi Michealwoodcoc

Get a service manual. Look at the oil diagram.

What should I look for?

The engineer representing me in my case told the judge that the damage immediately proceeded my low oil warning came on.

Now he won't write to the judge and inform her that low oil warning and the damage to the car are not necessarily connected. That the damage could have happened months before and the low oil warning only comes on when the oil is low.

I was hoping that someone could tell me something simple such as, he got oil warning pressure light and low oil warning mixed up.

He has said

"Oil Pressure light has nothing to do with oil level etc."

"Filling up the engine oil level all it did was thin the oil out and allowed the oil pressure switch to function . once the viscosity of the oil got heavier or thickened the light would come on."

I'm not an engineer but I had the car serviced 400kms before the low oil warning message appeared. After I kept it topped up the low oil warning message never appeared again.

 

[miningman]

OK, heres the summary of the important facts as I see them . This vehicle is a 2013 model and was bought used after say 60-100,000 km. So unless Toyota's warranty is incredibly generous, their warranty expired years ago. Waste of time even talking to them. I dont know the cost of vehicles in Australia, but lets guess this was a $12-18,000 purchase by the OP. He seems to have had the engine repaired, probably a $6-8,000 repair. So he now has a vehicle somehere close to what he thought he was buying.

Regardless of what other expert opinions he gets ,( and pays for ) say he sues the selling dealer, Any lawyer he talks to is going to say " Oh youve got a good case here. Yes I will act on your behalf. I will need a $4000 retainer to begin with".

Even if he wins the case, what will he get ?? Cost of repairs essentially. Say $7000. Would you spend $4000+ to maybe recover $7000? I most certainly would not.

 

[danielerror]

It's not clear who advised you legally in the preparation of your claim

When I contacted the dealer for help I told them what I knew, that a diesel mechanic had told me the car might be "dusted" and that Toyota had confirmed the car had excessive blow by. The case tried to prove what I had told the dealer.

I employed the expert witness to explain "dusted" because no one I spoke to knew what it was.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Miningman

Ive already had the case, the car cost more as did the new engine, I think we pay more for cars than you do because of our remoteness etc.

The case cost $85 in fees as it does not sit in front of a judge it sits in front of a lawyer (they are called a member but in Aus thats also slang for male genitalia so I used judge)

The expert witness cost more I was told I needed a "fancy expert" to explain the mechanical side by the civil court. No lawyer costs (yet)

I think the case works similar to your lemon laws, I do know we are trying to get the same law here.

In Australia if you buy something from a business you are protected under consumer law. For example if something has a major failure you are allowed to ask for help to get it fixed or a refund, replacement etc. I asked the dealer for help they said no, so I started looking into my rights (otherwise why buy from a dealer?)

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

I am afraid you should have come here before any work was done on the engine, I'm afraid it has already been fixed? You've missed your chance I'm afraid, depending on what was wrong. Do you have the old parts? Let me make this really simple, key things I would use are the following:

[ol 1]
[li]Compression[/li]
[li]Leak down, gotta see where the lost compression was going[/li]
[li]old oil filter from when you got the truck from the dealer(cut open)[/li]
[li]service record from the dealer before they put it up for sale, to see oil that was used in truck[/li]
[li]pictures of things that should have been inspected by dealer that could have led to this problem. I.E. air filter, leaks, whatever.[/li]
[li]Does AU have inspections? I'd see who inspected the thing. If it was the selling dealer, or someone else.[/li]
[li]People in the legal profession are sometimes clueless about this stuff. Like in the movie "A stroke of genius", you'd have to give them visuals. Old parts, new parts, microsope images.[/li]
[li]Judges have an attention span on any single issue/fact of about 10 seconds and it's hard to fix it if you get the fact wrong, or if they understand it wrong[/li]
[li]You'd probably have to prove that the problem was there before you bought it, and that the dealer knew about it, or they made a mistake in their service that caused these problems[/li]
[li]Example: They may have "bananna peeled" the engine. Basically, they could have put 90W gear oil, lucas oil additive, whatever. A common scum mechanic trick for leaky seals is brakefluid, IIRC, to swell the seals. I was told it fixes the leak for about 1 oil change[/li]
[li]oil sample of dealership oil would have helped[/li]
[/ol]

Having none of that, it's going to be hard to overcome their argument that it was something you did to the truck that caused it to fail. Especially since you got 10K KM's out of it, am I right?

If it were me, I'd only pursue it in one of these cases:
[ol 1]
[li]you find records of improper things being used before sale[/li]
[li]you have evidence of improper service before sale[/li]
[li]you find evidence of something that should have been caught in an inspection[/li]
[li]especially if the dealership did the inspection and inspections are mandated in AU. Conflict of interests in that case.[/li]
[/ol]


Engineering student. Electrical or mechanical, I can't decide!
Minoring in psychology

 

[danielerror]

Hi Michealwoodcoc


9. I have the previous service agent saying the car was burning a lot of oil before the previous owner sold it.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[IRstuff]

Oh, this is a used car? That's a different kettle of fish. The dealer is under no obligation to warranty it for more than 60 days or so, unless it was deemed a "factory certified" used car. If you got it for substantially less than the Blue Book of $41k, then you got what you paid for, essentially.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[danielerror]

Oh, this is a used car? That's a different kettle of fish.

Hi IRstuff in Aus we have consumer guarantees that apply whether the goods are new, ‘seconds’ or second-hand. The consumer guarantees will also generally apply to goods purchased online. It was written in the contract I signed to buy the car.

goods are of acceptable quality—that is, they are safe, durable and free from defects, are acceptable in appearance and finish and do what they are ordinarily expected to do (ACL section 54)
goods are fit for any purpose specified by the consumer or supplier (ACL section 55)

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[miningman]

As I said previously, this is not going to end well for the OP.

 

[danielerror]

I'll put in another vote for having no idea what 'dusted' means in context

I found a couple of dusted documents when preparing my case.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1niNfg4wy2RN5gBK-j3_PEDsP1WMCOlJK/view?usp=sharing

https://www.turbochargersplus.com/t...s-diesel-v8-ihi-turbo-problems-and-solutions/

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[IRstuff]

I think that you'll find your law does not guarantee factory quality/reliability for used items; no law can mandate nor enforce things that are physically impossible. You bought a car that had something like 75,000 miles on it? You should only be guaranteed whatever might be expected from such a car, which has likely gone past its typical mileage warranty.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[danielerror]

Hi Miningman,

It's already ended badly for me, I've come here for help. I went to tribunal with proof that the car was burning oil before I bought it. The engineer said that a dusted car would get a low oil warning light quickly after being dusted. The judge asked him this question a few different ways and he wouldn't change his position.

Now he will change his position and will write to the judge and change the word quickly, I'm trying to find an engineering way to get him to remove the idea from the judges mind that a dusted (excessive blow by) car will get a low oil warning as is my experience form driving the car while dusted.

Hopefully with some kind of documentation on low oil warnings or excessive blow by. Does anyone know where I can find documentation regarding these topics, I can't find anything on google.



Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

9. I have the previous service agent saying the car was burning a lot of oil before the previous owner sold it.

Unfortunately, this doesn't count for much unless the dealership you bought it from knew about it, and swept it under the rug. If it consumed oil but didn't smoke or have visible leaks, they can not be expected to know on a test drive. Does that make sense? When I worked at a dealership, we test drove motorcycles out of the crate for no more than 9 miles. We had pre determined loops to check everything. Customers love seeing mileage on a new vehicle in the single digits. They're unlikely to test drive anything much further than 9 miles, and they'd have no way of knowing unless it was specifically stated to them.

On another note, the dealership I worked at had customers sign papers when they recieved their motorcycles stating they were walked through the owners manual, and they would follow the instructions. In the owners manual, it has sections like "pre use inspection"
"Prior to every use, check the following:
1. tire pressure
2. oil level

The warning is specifically stated in the toyota manual as such:
"General maintenance should be performed on a daily basis. This can
be done by yourself or by a Toyota dealer."

Under general maintenance is oil level check

on page 461 of this manual:

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM60Q26U/pdf/OM60Q26U.pdf

they state the following:
Engine oil consumption
A certain amount of engine oil will be consumed while driving. In the following
situations, oil consumption may increase, and engine oil may need to be
refilled in between oil maintenance intervals.
●When the engine is new, for example directly after purchasing the vehicle or
after replacing the engine
●If low quality oil or oil of an inappropriate viscosity is used
●When driving at high engine speeds or with a heavy load, when towing, or
when driving while accelerating or decelerating frequently
●When leaving the engine idling for a long time, or when driving frequently
through heavy traffic

Immediately after buying a used car, one should check the oil level daily until the first fill up to know if it consumed oil, and how fast. After determining rough oil consumption, I check the oil level while gas is filling the tank.

When I was in highschool, I had an old toyota tercel. Little did I know, they left the factory with oval cylinder bores. It smoked when I bought it. One day a few weeks after changing the oil with synthetic, it stopped smoking. Great! I thought to myself. I fixed it!!!!

Later that day, what little oil remaining was spread 50 yards across the road. Little did I know, it stopped smoking because it had no oil left for the poor thing to burn. Unfortunately, I think we have one thing in common. We've both learned the hard way, that oil level should be checked frequently, or atleast frequently enough that you have a thorough understanding of when your oil level should be checked and topped up. I check my oil very frequently now and I never regret it. I'm sorry you had the experience of buying something with higher than normal oil consumption and you didn't know, and you weren't told.

Unfortunately in the case it seems it will be an uphill battle to prove the dealership knew, and are at fault any more than what they will say you are in this situation.

I wish you luck though, perhaps you can ask politely if there's anything they can do. Many a dealership still enjoys customer good will, and they'll work with you to keep it.

Engineering student. Electrical or mechanical, I can't decide!
Minoring in psychology

 

[danielerror]

Hi IRStuff

One of the examples given in the consumer guarantees is.

A consumer buys a used four-wheel-drive vehicle which is not covered by a statutory warranty in the state or territory where the dealer is licensed as it has travelled too many kilometres. However, it is a top-of-the-range vehicle and is only three years old, so when the engine seizes three months after purchase rendering the vehicle immobile and not drivable, this is likely to be a failure to meet the guarantee of acceptable quality under the ACL and the dealer should provide an appropriate remedy.


Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[danielerror]

Hi michaelwoodcoc

I think you are right and maybe the dealer didn't know about it. If they had looked down the intake they would of known but maybe the didnt check it.

The oil level seemed fine (I had not driven the car much) until I towed a caravan, first trip the low oil warning came on.

I wish you luck though, perhaps you can ask politely if there's anything they can do. Many a dealership still enjoys customer good will, and they'll work with you to keep it.

I appreciate this and when I contacted them I said "can you please help, I assumed they might point me to a good repair man or if I was lucky offer to pay for some of the repair. It was when they said "no" to any help I looked into my rights and it was in my contract. The car has to be sold without major faults, if it is the dealer should help.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.