Toyota Landcruiser V8 turbo diesel engine. VDJ 14

[danielerror]

Could a twin turbo Diesel engine (1VD-FTV) run for 10,000kms after having been dusted? The symptoms were excess oil usage under load (towing). I've been told by an automotive engineer that was impossible but the vehicle seemed to be in a slow decline, not a sudden drop in performance.

 

[wayne440]

This has been interesting reading. One lesson I have taken from it- when employing an "expert witness", find out what his/her testimony will consist of prior to the actual proceedings.

 

[IRstuff]

That's the message from pretty every lawsuit or trial on TV; never ask a question you don't already know the answer to; the corollary is that you must always prep your witness, regardless of how trivial the testimony might be.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[miningman]

Additional lessons include never buy a used vehicle without first having a pre-purchase inspection performed by an independent competent mechanic. Never rely on your own personal understanding of the local "fit for purpose" leglisation. Altho called different things in different countries , none of them provide the consumer much protection once cash has changed hands. Never run your vehicle so low of oil that the warning light comes on.

 

[IRstuff]

Your law also has

A consumer is not entitled to a remedy if they had an opportunity to examine the goods before purchase and did not find defects that they should have noticed.

and

Second-hand, leased or hired consumer goods supplied in trade or commerce are covered by the guarantee of acceptable quality, but age, price and condition must be taken into account.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[danielerror]

Hi IRstuff

I didn't ask the question the defence did. I thought the low oil warning came on the first trip with the caravan because it weighed three tonnes. Level was fine when I set off. Low oil warning came on and went off, but I checked it at the end of the trip and it was on the low level on the stick so I topped up.

I never expected an engineer to say a low oil warning would come on soon after a car became dusted. He also said in court the previous mechanic told him the engine was shot. I sent him everything I was going to say in my case notes.

Second-hand, leased or hired consumer goods supplied in trade or commerce are covered by the guarantee of acceptable quality, but age, price and condition must be taken into account.

I mentioned this in the case, I didn't expect a five year old $55,000 Toyota LandCruiser to need a new engine 5000kms from the dealer when I serviced it every 2000kms.



Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Miningman it was in the one trip the low oil warning came on, it turned off again immediately once the revs dropped. I checked at the end of that trip and it was low on the dipstick.

You are right, I wish I had an inspection and they had picked up the problem. I got an inspection done just before we set off while my car was getting serviced unfortunately they didn't notice anything.

The mechanic fitting the catch can noticed the dust and did a crankcase pressure test and a cylinder contribution test and the results showed a 10% difference across the cylinders. He said that might be due to the age and kms of the car and hopefully it wasn't dusted.

Forgive me, but I feel like I am defending myself here Miningman.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[danielerror]

This has been interesting reading. One lesson I have taken from it- when employing an "expert witness", find out what his/her testimony will consist of prior to the actual proceedings.

Hi Wayne, I think he simply made a mistake and was saying if a car gets dusted you would expect the low oil warning to come on quickly. When the judge and I both questioned him, he might not have realised the connection he had made.

He is a consulting engineer and attends several cases a week all worth a lot more than mine. It might somehow affect his business to admit a misunderstanding?

I was hoping to find technical proof that cylinder sidewall damage (dusting) will not result in a low oil warning if the oil is kept topped up.




Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[danielerror]

Maybe our emails will help.

Once I lost I listened to the case and asked him via email.
"in the case you said on a dusted car the low oil light come on quickly. The judge said, that's with or without towing and you said, yes".

If this is the case why didn't the light stay on once I topped up the oil? I don't understand why low oil and dusting would be connected if you top up the oil."

He said

"Oil Pressure light has nothing to do with oil level etc"

I replied

"why did topping up the oil help the light"

He replied

"Filling up the engine oil level all it did was thin the oil out and allowed the oil pressure switch to function once the viscosity of the oil got heavier or thickened the light would come on. I am not changing my findings and I will not be attending any hearing to try and amend the results."

I replied

"I was told my car was burning oil not turning it into sludge, wouldn't a car with an oil change, no longer be turning the oil to sludge without the appearance of more dust?"

he replied

I agree that topping up the engine oil regularly would have partially cleaned the oil lubrication system. And flushed the dirty oil into the engine oil filter. If the oil pressure switch is located near the oil filter then it is logical for the oil pressure switch to function periodically. As the viscosity of the oil changed from when the engine is cold to warm.

I replied

Hi Blank

Will you write to the judge explaining there may be a misunderstanding?


I don't really understand the technical aspects of what he has said but its been two weeks since these emails and he keeps asking for more time to give me an answer. Is there anything that could encourage him to write to the judge?




Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[CapriRacer]

Daniel,

It appears you are trying to reopen a case you lost. I am not a lawyer, but my experience says that this is futile. The time to have done all this homework was before the hearing. Having an expert change his testimony is not something judges typically listen to. Besides, unless you are paying the expert, he has no incentive to write and email to the judge.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Capriracer.

Besides, unless you are paying the expert

He was my witness, I am paying him.

I took recorded proof of three people saying there was something wrong with the car before I bought it. Unfortunately there was a misunderstanding between the judge and engineer. When he mentioned that a dusted car would get a low oil light quickly. The judge thought that the first time I put a caravan on the car must be the same time the dusting occurred. I challenged him during the case but he didnt change his view until after the case and he understood that the judge had connected the events.

I called the tribunal and they told me I can get the engineer to write corrections to the judge and she might reconsider or I can apply for an appeal.

I agree he has no incentive to write to the judge, he has come part way and will remove the word quickly but not that a dusted car will get a low oil warning.


I am hoping to find some information on engineering regarding low oil warnings or cylinder wall damage here. Or something I could tell him to prove the logic that just because a car has a low oil light come on it doesn't mean it has been dusted.

Thank you for all your help so far.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[BrianPetersen]

I don't know what the laws are like where you live, but where I live ...

Used-car transactions between private people (not dealers) are "as-is, no warranty". You are on your own. You inherit whatever's wrong with the vehicle and whatever it costs to fix.

If you bought from a used-car dealer, unless it was explicitly stated "as-is, no warranty", there is an implied 30-day warranty by default, and it sounds like that is long past. You are on your own.

I'm assuming that the vehicle in question is old enough that it is no longer under its original manufacturer's powertrain warranty.

Cheap price = more risk.

 

[danielerror]

Hi BrianPeterson

Thanks for your response.

I'm looking for some documentation or a video on low oil warnings or cylinder wall damage, do you know where I could find that information?

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

Additional lessons include never buy a used vehicle without first having a pre-purchase inspection performed by an independent competent mechanic. Never rely on your own personal understanding of the local "fit for purpose" leglisation. Altho called different things in different countries , none of them provide the consumer much protection once cash has changed hands. Never run your vehicle so low of oil that the warning light comes on.

How could a used car inspection even catch this? If it didn't smoke, and didn't leak, the best bet would be a long test drive and an oil analysis

I didn't ask the question the defence did. I thought the low oil warning came on the first trip with the caravan because it weighed three tonnes. Level was fine when I set off. Low oil warning came on and went off, but I checked it at the end of the trip and it was on the low level on the stick so I topped up.

Classic sign here of crankcase oil dilution with diesel. It could have had low compression when you bought it, I.E. the fit of the pistons was such that diesel would make its way into the crankcase. A very thorough inspection could have caught the low compression or leak down. Or oil analysis could have caught it.

https://www.lubricants.total.com/news-press-releases/fuel-dilution-engine-oil-causes-and-effects

Hi Miningman it was in the one trip the low oil warning came on, it turned off again immediately once the revs dropped. I checked at the end of that trip and it was low on the dipstick.

Also a fatal error. Depending on the engine design, Engine oil will get flung all over the crank case/block/cylinder heads at higher RPM, and is more likely to stay in the crankcase longer without returning to the oil pan sump.

If the oil pressure light comes on at all, you pull over and put more oil in pronto. I learned that with the tercel, oil light came on at high RPM, I thought I could limp it home. Low RPM it was off. Still didn't make it.

I'm looking for some documentation or a video on low oil warnings or cylinder wall damage, do you know where I could find that information?

This also sounds like the classic oil dilution. Oil dilution damages the engine slowly, over time, because fuel of any kind (except maybe biodiesel) does not provide anywhere the lubrication your engine needs.

In a gas engine the fuel easily washes the cylinder walls of oil when cold, or when rich sometimes, and destroys it that way in short time.

There was a funny video on youtube by VinWiki where this guy boughta GMC motor home. They didn't make it home, and the engine had low compression when at a mechanic shop. They wondered why, it ran strong when they got it. It got way worse fuel economy though than it should have.

Turns out the carburetor was leaky letting in extra fuel. Bad MPGs and led to engine damage.

Your landcruiser may have a tune leading to extra fuel injection. Can you check this out to make sure? I'm not sure if tuning is prevalent in AU like it is in USA.

Could also just have been oil dilution and low quality oil. Always use synthetic, and make sure the oil level never goes up. It will fool you into thinking the oil level is correct, when infact, it's oil and diesel in there.

Also, it may feel like you're defending yourself, however, it's just a side effect of conversing with people who speak matter of factly. I sympathize with you, however, I just don't see a way that they were out to get you, or even if they were out to get you, that you can prove it. They may have been as clueless as you were. In these life instances it's unfortunately the best to put these behind us and learn from the experience. I can't think of a way with the info you have to prove your case.

Engineering student. Electrical or mechanical, I can't decide!
Minoring in psychology

 

[IRstuff]

The warranty on new Land Cruiser is 3 yr/36,000 mi basic, 5 yr/60,000 mi powertrain. 60,000 mi = 96,561 km

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[Ron]

This is a long thread and I haven't carefully read each one, but I get that you are asking the expert to change an apparently true statement....that a dusted engine will cause the oil light to come on. You should not be asking him to change that statement but to further explain to the judge that the oil light was simply a symptom of a more significant issue...that being that the dusting caused irreparable damage to the engine that occurred at some time prior to your purchase but only manifested after your purchase (if that can be proved). "Quickly" is a nebulous quantification. It should not have been used in the explanation and I think your expert realizes that by being willing to remove it.

My practice is Forensic Engineering with a specialty in structures, pavements and construction failures. My clients always know my opinions before they are given at deposition or in court.



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[BUGGAR]

Drop in an LS and be happy!

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

^not a good idea sir. The 2jz would be a safe bet.

I think OP likes towing big caravans though. An inline diesel 6 would be cool, easier to work on, and perhaps have less vibrations. If it'd fit under the bonnet.

Engineering student. Electrical or mechanical, I can't decide!
Minoring in psychology

 

[danielerror]

Hi IRStuff

In Australia it's 5 years and 160,000kms but it's a recent change.



Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Ron

You should not be asking him to change that statement but to further explain to the judge that the oil light was simply a symptom of a more significant issue...that being that the dusting caused irreparable damage to the engine that occurred at some time prior to your purchase but only manifested after your purchase (if that can be proved)

Thanks for this it's well put. I've been asking him to "correct what may be a misunderstanding" but this is much more succinct. I have written this almost word for word in an email to him, thanks for your help. My proof is a the previous service mechanic going on record to say that the car was sold because it "was burning a bit of oil" he also said it to my expert witness in a phone call.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Michealwoodcoc

This is a great post

Classic sign here of crankcase oil dilution with diesel. It could have had low compression when you bought it, I.E. the fit of the pistons was such that diesel would make its way into the crankcase. A very thorough inspection could have caught the low compression or leak down. Or oil analysis could have caught it.

Also a fatal error. Depending on the engine design, Engine oil will get flung all over the crank case/block/cylinder heads at higher RPM, and is more likely to stay in the crankcase longer without returning to the oil pan sump.

If the oil pressure light comes on at all, you pull over and put more oil in pronto. I learned that with the tercel, oil light came on at high RPM, I thought I could limp it home. Low RPM it was off. Still didn't make it.

This also sounds like the classic oil dilution. Oil dilution damages the engine slowly, over time, because fuel of any kind (except maybe biodiesel) does not provide anywhere the lubrication your engine needs.

The report you linked to is great it said "In short, when fuel mixes with the lubricant, it reduces the viscosity of the oil, meaning that the viscosity may be too low to create an oil film capable of withstanding heavy loads and speeds in some parts of the engine. This results in friction between the metal surfaces and wear of the parts"

Any chance this would present it's self more when the car was put under load and high rpm but be minimised when not under load? Leading to the situation where I thought the car was fine but it used too much oil when towing?

Now that Ive had the car fixed I know it sounded a bit rough when I bought it. It has a lovely even sound now.


Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.