Toyota Landcruiser V8 turbo diesel engine. VDJ 14

[danielerror]

Could a twin turbo Diesel engine (1VD-FTV) run for 10,000kms after having been dusted? The symptoms were excess oil usage under load (towing). I've been told by an automotive engineer that was impossible but the vehicle seemed to be in a slow decline, not a sudden drop in performance.

 

[gruntguru]

A few random comments.

- Some posts by the OP appear to be referring to a "low oil pressure" warning light - others suggest it is a "low oil level light". Does the car have both?
- Whether the dealer selling the car was "aware" of the problem is irrelevant in consumer law. The case is not about fraud but whether the goods were fit for purpose.
- The quotes from your expert indicate some serious lack of automotive understanding. In particular "Oil Pressure light has nothing to do with oil level etc" The most common cause of low oil pressure is low oil level (near empty).

"Filling up the engine oil level all it did was thin the oil out and allowed the oil pressure switch to function once the viscosity of the oil got heavier or thickened the light would come on. I am not changing my findings and I will not be attending any hearing to try and amend the results." Thick oil does not cause the light to come on unless it is so thick (eg carbon sludging) that it will not flow from the sump into the oil pickup. This will invariably be worse when the engine is cold and improve with a hot engine. It is far more usual for thin oil to cause low oil pressure.

His comments about oil pressure switch proximity to the filter are also nonsense.

je suis charlie

 

[gruntguru]

Listened to the transcript. The "expert" seems to be convinced the oil light results from "thickened" oil. I say "not likely".
- you mentioned "topping up" when the oil light came on. Was a large amount of oil (more than three litres) required? If so, the oil light was due to low oil level, not thickened oil.
- Under towing conditions the oil would be hot. "Thickened" oil when hot will normally thin-out enough to give adequate oil pressure.
- Dust alone would not cause the degree of "thickening" required just 400km after a service. Thickening is usually the result of carbon accumulation over a long period of operation with black exhaust smoke (caused by over-fuelling, faulty injectors, lack of boost etc). High blow-by might also contribute to thickening by oxidising oil on the bores.
- Dusting causes wear of piston rings and bores. The effect on oil pressure is secondary - the wear causes high oil consumption (particularly under high load eg towing) which does not affect the oil pressure until the oil level drops to near empty.

je suis charlie

 

[danielerror]

Today is the day he told me he will give a response.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[GregLocock]

Worn valve guides are also a typical wear point that lead to high oil consumption.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[danielerror]

He has written a new submission I'm happy with, I pasted it below. I would like to thank everyone for helping out with this. Gruntguru, michealwoodcoc and tmoose have helped tremendously with my understanding of the situation. Thanks Ron for advising what to write, I think in the wording of his response, you can see how you helped,


I wish to clarify the following.

The statement Mr expert witness said, when the Oil Pressure light comes on, that tells you there is a problem with oil pressure and he said it was correct that upon an engine being dusted the light would come on quickly with or without towing anything.

The statement is correct except for one word “Quickly” which should be deleted
with the final line reading “that upon an engine being dusted the oil pressure light would come on regardless of whether the vehicle was towing anything or not.

The wording needs to be clarified, “with an engine that has evidence of dusting it does not necessarily result in the Oil Pressure light being illuminated”.

Regularly changing or even “topping up” the engine oil could result in the oil pressure light not activating, as the oil viscosity is thin enough to flow easily through the oil pressure switch.


Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[danielerror]

Hi Gruntguru

Was a large amount of oil (more than three litres) required?

It was at least three litres because it's two litre's from the bottom of the line to the top and it was off the stick.

Thanks for all your help I wish I'd had you at my case.


Studying Social Science: Psyc major, comms minor. Travelling full time around Australia with my family. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo.

 

[enginesrus]

You really need someone that knows those engines. He/she would like mentioned above know how to determine the condition of the cylinders, ring packs etc. and if for sure the cause is from abrasive ingestion. There are other places the lube oil can disappear from pcv, turbo seals, leaks etc. Oil pressure? Could even be a case of sludge, but then like grunt says the low indication would be first suspect as well as his other mentions. Michaelwood mentioned some of the tests needed, and all that should have been done before a court case, I'd say figure out the problem so you know for sure, most techs will document all tests done. And wow this was a long thread so it was a speed reading thing.

 

[danielerror]

Hi enginesrus the engine was rebuilt before the court case. So the photos and report on the internals was supplied to the judge and respondent. No defence was made on condition of the engine, everyone agreed the engine was damaged by abrasive ingestion. Some tests were done before the case, fuel, oil and compression, unless one was mentioned that I missed.

The dealers defence was:

1. I took too long to tell them.

2. That because I took so long to tell them an easy fix was not made available to them.

I learned a good lesson from this first point, if you buy a car from a dealer, write them an email with every thing you notice about the car. Even if the internet says that the issue is normal. I tried not to bother them until I knew for sure that there was something wrong and there was not an easy fix. We tried a number of things, filter, catch can and crd Fuel Enhancer.

For point 2, The witness argued that there was never an easy fix once the damage had been done.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, Comms minor. Took a year off work (Film School teacher) to travel around Australia with my partner and four kids. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo, Jayco Sterling.

 

[enginesrus]

We have to remember, in everyone's eyes, the consumer or purchaser of a car / truck is not a mechanical expert. That is why they (average owners) take the vehicle to the dealer or some shop to have oil changes and work done. So it has nothing to do with you not telling them a thing, unless a low oil indication showed. Then you resolve that if your on the road, and then call them as soon as possible and arrange for them to look at it. If you do that and take it in for them to check and service, and they release the vehicle to you and say all is good. Then that is on them, they are the experts not you. Even if you are an expert.

 

[danielerror]

Hi enginesrus

I appreciate you mentioning this.

Some other points are: should I have had it inspected? If the inspector missed the dusting I would have had no case against the dealer.

In my situation low oil warning flashed on and when I googled it the issue it was common when towing but I should have shot them an email saying the Low Oil Warning flashed on.

When I knew something was wrong, I emailed the dealer what I knew, if I didn't tell them what I knew I would have had a stronger case (as MintJulep mentioned) because the engine was considered "shot" 5000kms after I bought the car.

Sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, I guess if you find a good dealer that looks after you, look after them too.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, Comms minor. Took a year off work (Film School teacher) to travel around Australia with my partner and four kids. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo, Jayco Sterling.

 

[danielerror]

I spoke to the Expert Witness again and it turns out he thought the Judge was talking about a hypothetical oil light. Not the Low Oil Message that I saw on my dash that the Dealer was questioning. Maybe he was was speaking a little too matter of factly You can listen to the case and decide for yourself if you want.

https://youtu.be/EqkdHVRK61Q

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, Comms minor. Took a year off work (Film School teacher) to travel around Australia with my partner and four kids. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo, Jayco Sterling.

 

[danielerror]

Some follow up. As evidence I had a low oil level warning as my first symptom of dusting and he said in court.

"Mr Expert Witness said when the oil light comes on, that tells you there is a problem with oil pressure, and he said it was 'correct' that upon an engine being dusted the light would come on quickly, with or without towing anything."

When I asked him about it originally he corrected "quickly" as you can see in past post. I said I thought pressure and level were different and can we put in a report for my appeal that low oil level is not necessarily a symptom of dusting. He wrote in a report.

There is some confusion with the Oil pressure light versus the “low oil indicator light.”
The Oil Pressure light will only operate when the engine is initially started and will go out when
the oil pressure reaches the designed oil pressure which is preset by the manufacture of the
vehicle and or engine. The fitment of a low oil indicator light is operated by a pressure switch located in an oil gallery and has a time delay before the oil level light indicates.

Having read the administers report, I cannot finding any point which we could question that would change the final outcome.


I said I don't understand how this says low oil level is not a symptom of dusting and he replied.

the report dates the 12th of July covers all of the technical points that the administrator needs.
The report clearly explains the difference between oil pressure and low oil level.
Because the oil being used in the engine being a synthetic oil it is continually thinning the engine oil and thus giving a false Indicator.

Can anyone explain what the engineer means?






Studying Social Science: Psyc major, Comms minor. Took a year off work (Film School teacher) to travel around Australia with my partner and four kids. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo, Jayco Sterling.

 

[miningman]

The dealer was NOT responsible for running this engine with an oil level so low that the oil warning light came on. You really need to get your brains around this fact if you are to avoid further expense and aggravation.

 

[danielerror]

I don't think that the dealer ran the oil level low, I thought I did that. What do you mean? I'm sorry I don't understand what the report means.

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, Comms minor. Took a year off work (Film School teacher) to travel around Australia with my partner and four kids. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo, Jayco Sterling.

 

[gruntguru]

I think you are misinterpreting the scenario miningman.

The OP bought a vehicle which functioned OK for several thousand km. The first time he towed with it, the oil level went from full to empty in the course of a few hundred km. There is a high probability this defect was present when the vehicle was purchased.

je suis charlie

 

[danielerror]

Thanks Gruntguru, I'm also happy to accept responsibility that it might of been me Miningman, there is always a possibility. I drove the car to work a few times hwy kms, I did 2000kms before I got it serviced and we set off.

I didn't understand what the engineer meant when he said "Because the oil being used in the engine being a synthetic oil it is continually thinning the engine oil and thus giving a false Indicator"

I think he is talking about when I topped up the oil each trip, does that thin out the oil?

Studying Social Science: Psyc major, Comms minor. Took a year off work (Film School teacher) to travel around Australia with my partner and four kids. Toyota LandCrusier 4.5L V8 twin turbo, Jayco Sterling.

 

[gruntguru]

Was the car running synthetic oil before you had it serviced?

Changing to synthetic oil will often result in increased oil consumption. This is usually temporary, but a worn engine will often have carbon deposits assisting the ring seal. Changing to synthetic will remove these deposits and expose . . . . a worn engine which will then proceed to do what worn engines do.

je suis charlie

 

[LionelHutz]

Every time I open this train wreck the description of what happened seems to get worse. I'll have to watch that video off work hours to just see what really happened.

The fitment of a low oil indicator light is operated by a pressure switch located in an oil gallery and has a time delay before the oil level light indicates.

This statement is wrong. A low oil level indicator uses some method to measure the oil in the engine sump and will illuminate the light when the oil level is low. The method can vary with each manufacturer but it often involves some type of float switch. Oil pressure has no bearing on an oil level indicator.

I have no clue what he means by the constantly thinning argument. But then, I have no idea who he is. Is that the judge?

Honestly, it sounds like you hired an idiot - either the lawyer or the expert - since there was a complete failure to ensure the testimony would support your case.

 

[michaelwoodcoc]

Was the car running synthetic oil before you had it serviced?

Changing to synthetic oil will often result in increased oil consumption. This is usually temporary, but a worn engine will often have carbon deposits assisting the ring seal. Changing to synthetic will remove these deposits and expose . . . . a worn engine which will then proceed to do what worn engines do.

my experience with my old mercedes turbodiesel was a little different. Changed to synthetic and oil consumption was halved. The explaination offered by some not so technically inclined peoples was that it must've cleaned the piston ringlands and inproved ring seal. Seems far fetched to me.

All I know is synthetic can sometimes only reduce oil consumption, even from a high quality dino oil. And even in an aging 1980's era turbo Mercedes at that.

I'm under the impression that OP should have noticed oil consumption if it was going into the combustion chamber, it should have smoked. Going from full to empty on a tow should produce visible smoke. It could have been oil dilution, or poor quality oil, an oil leak, or, perhaps an oil leak into the exhaust somehow.

it is 100% possible there was a defect when OP bought the truck. However, if it only happened while towing, how was the dealer supposed to know? if OP could prove it, that the dealer knew and concealed it, he'd have a case which would be much more likely to result in a favorable outcome for him. In this case, however, I'm not so sure it's worth the effort. The dealer may have had the wool pulled over their eyes as much as OP. Then what are they going to do? go after the person who traded in the truck?

Engineering student. Electrical or mechanical, I can't decide!
Minoring in psychology

 

[gruntguru]

Agree - on a good engine synthetic will usually reduce oil consumption - eventually. A temporary increase in consumption is VERY common. The process is most likely removal of carbon, gum and varnish from the rings and lands. In many cases these deposits are contributing to the oil-seal. Often the rings are stuck or at least sticky. The synthetic oil eventually frees them up and allows them to function normally.

The dealer's responsibility under Australian consumer law exists regardless of ignorance. Even if they were unaware of the problem, they are bound to remedy a situation where the goods were not of "marketable" quality and fit for purpose.

je suis charlie