truss failure and a lawsuit 4

[AlpineEngineer]

I got a call from a client who has a 2 year old stick built barn. On either end of the barn the first truss in (not the gable end truss) has a broken bottom chord, completely snapped, and he just noticed it. He has called the builder and the truss manufacturer multiple times and has gotten no where. He is greatly concerned because the first snows are allready falling.

He would like to hire me to design a fix and he is filing a lawsuit against the builder in the mean time. I am a bit hesitant to get in the middle of the whole thing. What would you do?

Judging by the fact that the same truss on either end is broken it's not just some bad 2x material, it would seem to me that there is a design or construction error. Even if I designed a splice to fix the truss, I'm thinking, it is probably overloaded in other areas and would just break at the next weakest point the next snow we get. I suppose I would need to go through the entire structure and review the design and then determine if it was built correctly, ect... Of course the client just wants a splice designed and wants to spend minimal money on this. Am I being overly cautious?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[MarcbSE]

No you are not being overly cautious!! I would not want to get involved in that project under those circumstances. The owner is wanting a quick easy fix because he doesn't want to pay what it would take to make sure there are no other problems.

If the two end trusses failed in exactly the same way, I would be concerned that once a splice/repair was performed on these trusses that the next set inside would fail next. Once that happens he will be filing a lawsuit against you because you didn't tell him anything else was wrong. It won't matter to him or the court that it was outside your scope of services.

This sounds like a design or fabrication problem with the trusses, and not something that will go away by repairing only these two trusses.

I'm not saying not to get involved in the project at all. The owner has a significant problem that needs to be addressed, but it has to be addressed fully and the owner needs to understand that. He needs a fix rather than a band-aid.

 

[vmirat]

You said that the bottom chord was completely snapped. Did it pull apart at the splice plate? Could it be that the owner tried to hang something from the bottom chord and that caused the break (which it was probably not designed to handle)?

I would say that your involvement is totally up to you. However, the owner should be aware of some things. Is there a current warranty on the work, either from the builder or from the manufacturer? If so, any work that the owner undertakes would probably void it. If not, then the owner can make repairs and sue for reimbursement of those costs since he's concerned about further damage.

I think the owner should hire a lawyer and let the lawyer decide whether to hire you or not.

 

[csd72]

What if you get the client to send you dimensions and photos, dont visit site.

Then issue a 'temporary fix' based on the given dimensions with the recommendation that a full structural survey be carried out as soon as possible to determine if other areas have been affected.

csd

 

[AlpineEngineer]

He didn't hang anything from them nor has he put anything on the bottom chords (there isn't even an attic in the barn, its all open to below). The failure was not at the splice plate, it was mid way between the splice plate and the end. It's a nasty break. I don't know if there is a warranty but a 2 year old failure is unacceptable. The manufacturer is saying they will only talk to the builder; their client. The builder refuses to return phone calls. The owner is going about the lawsuit on his own, no attorney.

Thanks for your guys' input. I think I am going to tell him I will have to review the original dwgs & calcs, verify it was built right, ect..

You bring up a good point, if something else goes wrong I'm sure he would have no problem suing me.

 

[rb1957]

whenever lawyers are involved you can't be too careful !

there're enough questions about the structure to stay away from it.

if you do want to help, i guess you could design a repair for the obvious damage (how strong should it be ?) and emphasise that this doesn't guarrantee the whole structure ... even if you repair the bottom chord, can you be sure that the other truss elements are good for their job ?

 

[UcfSE]

I wouldn't touch it.

 

[dik]

I would visit the site to try to determine what had happened and then contact the truss supplier or truss engieer and advise them of the problem. If the member has snapped without significant live load, it may be a materil failure, check for knots, etc., else the truss could be seriously deficient. Try to obtain a truss shop drawing and verify design loading.

If the owner is considering a lawsuit, then tread carefully. For a lawsuit to proceed, he should be looking for an engineered report; this should be carefully executed and fees should be appropriate. For regular work I generally charge $100-$120 per hour; for litigation, my fees start at $150 and often go to $200. In addition to highter rates, the reports take longer due to careful preparation.

Dik

 

[vmirat]

This just sounds fishy to me. Only two trusses, in the same location but on opposite sides of the building, with identical failures. I'm assuming that the building is symetrical so that these trusses are seeing the same load. If they are interior trusses, and this is a simple gable roof design, then the roof loads should be the same on all the interior trusses, unless you're getting a huge amount of snow drift on the gable ends. It's an interesting forensic issue. I don't suppose you've looked for evidence of cracking in the other trusses? What about evidence of tension overstress in the splice plates? I would think that these would fail in tension at the splice plate first before the wood failed. If this isn't the result of a knot or some other defect, then there's something weird going on.

 

[MarcbSE]

"(there isn't even an attic in the barn, its all open to below)"

This brings up an interesting question: the truss manufacturer will typically assume the bottom chord is fully braced by ceiling. If they were never informed that the bottom chord would be free there would be some problems there.

The bottom chord would be in tension under normal gravity loads, but not for uplift.

 

[sundale]

I would get an ideminity and waiver to sue agreement from the owner and politely explain to him why. If he is reasonable and his intentions are honorable, he should not have a problem with this.

If he balks at such an agreement as a condition of your taking him as a client, I would RUN, not walk, away from the project.

 

[AlpineEngineer]

The truss company apparently designed one truss to be repeated every 9' throughout the barn. This barn is a cookie cutter design. The truss design and reactions seem to add up, they meet snow loads, ect.. There is note that the truss is to have 3/4" camber at the centerline, I have never seen such a note on a truss. How do you camber a premanufactured truss??

I have yet to visit the site and make sure they weren't over spaced in the field.

 

[Lion06]

Just wait until you go out to visit the site and you can see the marks on the bottom chord where this guy was hanging his engine pulling equipment or something ridiculous.

 

[msquared48]

Personally, I would not get involved here unless you have good liability insurance. You already know that he is in a sue happy state. You have to ask yourself if the risk iws worth the profit.

I know that some of these occurrences can be very interesting to solve, but you do not need to jeopardize your professional future and that of your family by doing so. You cannot save the world.

That being said, considering all the previous comments, I think that material defects are highly suspect here, being it the actual stress grades furnished, knots, or wanes. Could also be a reduced section due to interior undetected rot in the member, although that is a reach, particularly since it occurred in two members.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[hokie66]

If the owner is representing himself in a lawsuit, I would let him represent himself in solving his structural problem. The "cookie cutter design", who was responsible for that? Whoever, they should be involved in the solution.

If you do decide to get involved, I think the failure of the first internal truss at both ends sounds like a global shear failure when subject to lateral load. That is, the bottoms chords tried unsuccessfully to transfer the wind load to the end walls. Conjecture from afar on my part, but could be the explanation.

 

[csd72]

If you visit site then it can be claimed that you had the opportunity to inspect the whole building for defects - best to avoid that.

If you are involved then you can be sued. If there is no-one else involved that can be sued then they will definately try and sue you.

That is why I recommended specifying a temporary fix from afar and recommending further action. They then cannot acuse you of lack of diligence.

But as many have said, it is probably wiser not to get involved.

csd

 

[plasgears]

Splice plates should be critically reviewed. I have heard of many bottom chord failures even in state buildings. One builder of lumber trusses sent a man above to add nails thru the chord plates after erection. It looked silly after completion of the roof.

I have felt for some time that tension cables/bars/plates should be added to bottom chords to help avoid wood truss failure. Splice plates should be considered an assy expedient, not a structural element. "A good fix would be to attach a come-along at the chord ends and attach a bolted splice plate over all splice plates.

 

[hokie66]

plasgears,

What is the point of coming into this discussion and answering a question that hasn't been asked? The chord didn't fail at the splice place, the stick of wood broke between connections.

 

[FSS]

I hope someone has told this guy to install temporary shoring while he waits on a fix.

 

[NITTANYRAY]

A 9' spacing seems to be excessive for a 2x truss. I have seen 4' spacing on pole barns but never 9'. You didn't mention the span length. I assume they have 2x purlins on the roof. If they are turned flat-wise that could also be a problem.