Uncompensated Overtime 7

[spongebob007]

Am I alone in not understanding why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"? It seems like from what I have read in many posts here and the attitude of many of my co-workers at my current employer that if you have chosen the field of engineering then 60 hour work weeks just come with the territory. Now don't get me wrong, I do enjoy engineering but when it comes right down to it, I work to live, not live to work.

Now as a salaried employee I realize that means that uncompensated overtime will be required, but I guess where I depart from what everyone else is that I feel it should be the exception and not the rule. Yes, I realize that stuff happens and in a crunch I might have to work 50,60, or even 70 hours a week to get through the crunch, but I don't feel like I should be expected to put in these kinds of hours every week. I do have a life outside of work you know.

I changed jobs a few months ago. When I was looking I was seriously in the running for another position besides my current employer. I wanted the other job more, but the money wasn't there (They really wanted to hire me but I think they also were really looking for a less senior person to work for less money), but the real tie breaker my current employer sold me on was the four day work weeks. Since I was giving up four weeks of vacation, I figured having every Friday off would make up for losing two weeks of vacation. After all, I looked back over the years and I usually only take one full week off. The rest of my vacation time went to taking long weekends throughout the year. It seemed like a deal too good to pass up.

So I took the job and quickly found out the off Fridays were a benefit that management really doesn't want engineers to use. We are already putting in a ten hour day M-Thurs. Management has repeatedly told engineering in department meetings that we are expected to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week. I really don't want to work 11.25 hour days to make it happen (frankly I'm not going to get 11 hours worth of work done anyway, my attention span just isn't that long.) The only real way to get the hours done in a reasonable way is to work on the off Fridays like many of my coworkers do. This aggravates me because they sold the four ten hour day work week as a benefit at my interview, but then basically tell me that if I want to keep my job I am pretty much going to have to work five days.

The reason is clear: My firm direct bills our customers for our hours. If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40. The more I work, the more profit the company makes. Now why the hell should I care? I just don't see what it in it for me. My impression of corporate America is that when times are good the fat cats in upper management take more than their fair share, and maybe, just maybe if you are a good little worker bee and sacrifice your life to the company, you might get thrown some table scraps from the feast, but when times are tough, it is the employees who are expected to make the sacrifices. To me it seems very one sided, I can give 150% but yet be walked out the door tomorrow simply due to a corporate takeover or the whim of some know nothing bean counter looking to boost margins.

 

[TenPenny]

I cannot agree more. There are a gazillion companies running around, professing to be 'family friendly', but that bs stops the minute you want to go home to have a family, then you discover your boss doesn't believe in it. Salaried people are often expected to work extra hours, for no additional benefit to them. Sometimes, the carrot is dangled of 'banking' hours worked, and then letting you take it off later...except that never happens, either.

I often take my laptop home, and work there, but on the other hand, I often take off to get my daughter to hockey practice. People who are pushed to work 60 and 80 hour weeks for no extra compensation usually burn out, and that does no good to anybody. As I said to one co worker, on my last day at that job, "There's always another job out there somewhere, but I only have one family, and I plan to keep it that way".

 

[mechengdude]

You are not alone in your thoughts my friend.

Corporate America loves playing up the "do it for the good of the company thing". Companies love to perpetuate the stigma that "all the engineers work 50 plus hours". Once they have that culture embedded at their work place you look like the odd man out for complaining.

Now don't get me wrong. There might be some small firms where everyone needs to pitch in or the place goes under. Also there are places that actually do reward excess overtime with a bonus at the end of the year.

Now back to your dilemma, I would be pissed if the company sold the job as a four day work week and then basically said " four day work weeks are only for slackers; you need to work more hours".

Good luck.

 

[EddyC]

Don't waste your time working for these losers. Go out and get another job. Firms that do what you described have little to contribute to the world.

 

[MadMango]

You must have signed some papers when you started, maybe received an offer letter that detailed the hours and your salary? You could try to fall back on that, but it probably won't change things. I hold a strong belief that I am paid a salary based on 40hrs a week. I schedule my time to get the work done that needs to be accomplished in that time frame. There had better be a great reason (picking-up other's slack doesn't cut it) why management is asking me to stay longer than I should. You'll probably have to start looking for work in a different industry, something new, or make peace with it. Welcome to Corporate America.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[livingston]

This kind of thing makes you wonder why everyone strives for salaried positions. If you are going to have to put the hours in anyway and have very little job security, why not become a contractor. At least they get paid for working overtime. Around here, the rule of thumb is that your salary is based on 45 hours/week. (I missed that part when I was hired on). I think the whole salaried employment is the holy grail thing is another bill of goods we were sold somewhere along the line.

 

[KENAT]

spongebob, this type of situation was one of the things behind my previous thread :thread732-196326



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ivymike]

livingston, you and I must have missed the memo - the standard work week here is also 45hrs.

 

[csd72]

What are you complaining about, I heard that you mechanical guys get salaries that make hollywood actors jealous!

But seriously, I personally have no issue doing occasional overtime to meet deadline e.t.c. I consider that part and parcel of being a salary earner. I do object to companies expecting me to work more than those hours each and every week.

If you object to doing any unpaid overtime then I personally would suggest you get an hourly rate contract job where you do get paid for every hour.

csd

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I work 40 hours a week. In the last two years I have only twice worked more than 50 hours in one week. I like it this way.

I'm not trying to gloat or anything, I'm just saying noty all engineering jobs are 45+ hours a week.

Okay, the next bit is just an ancedote from my own company but:

All of the R&D staff and production engineers (materials engineers, process engineers, product development engineers, QA engineers, etc) work 40 hours a week, few exceptions. The mechanical engineers (the ones who design in-house equipment) work 60-70 hours a week regularly. Maybe it's just mechanical engineers that are being screwed...

 

[csd72]

We are professionals, it is not the amount of hours but the work we get done and the deadlines we meet.

 

[graybeach]

Spongebob - your post makes me so angry! Your employer is totally wrong to bill for your time and not pay you. Is that even legal?
Anyway - when my kids were small, working like that was simply not an option. Luckily, I worked for a large transportation engineering firm. I was able to get my work done in 40 hours, and get it done well. I was never pressured to work more. If you keep the constraint that you will not work overtime (except in extreme circumstances), you will develop the discipline to plan ahead to avoid crises.
The nice thing about my former company was that everyone was paid hourly. One could charge for as many hours as one worked. The only time I worked overtime without pay was when I was the project manager and I knew the budget was getting tight. Otherwise, I always charged and had everyone on the project do so as well. We are worth it!
Your time is worth it too. I echo the advice of others - get another job.

 

[UcfSE]

Some places will pay overtime to professionals, even if it isn't 1.5 times your normal rate. I actually found one like that and haven't looked back since. You may try to do the same. Otherwise that's just the way of things. It sux bad but there isn't much that can be done except to move on.

 

[PSE]

The work always seems to be there whether you go at it 40 hours a week or more. Management can try to establish the "expectation" that additional hours are part of being "professional", but the choice is (or should still be) yours as to overtime work. You can easily test this by doing 40 hour weeks and seeing how your supervisor or manager reacts (if at all). Management may also try to play off employees against each other for promotion or raises based upon "level of effort shown" vs actual results obtained.

In short, good management should be willing to work with you. Bad management you don't want to work for in the first place.

Regards,

 

[GMcD]

I blame it on spreadsheets. Managers now are obsessed with the numbers, hours, productivity ratios, etc., basically becoming "spreadsheet managers", and they have lost the art of "management by walking around". The obsession with "hours worked" is the only measure they have of what's going on, since their spreadsheets CANNOT tell them how efficient each individual employee is at the actual work they are doing, because they don't use the personal touch any more. If an employee is very effective and efficient at his job, and can get things done in the 40 hours or less, then why isn't THAT rewarded? It isn't rewarded because management is getting out of touch with what staff actually do, and the economic theories taught at MBA School teach managers to get away from the personal level and treat everything as impassively as possible, and the bottom line $$ is all that matters to them. Pride in the product, or project is not something the spreadsheet can capture, so it's ignored.

 

[BJC]

spongebob007
"why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"? Actually your not, it's for the good of a few managers and owners. It's really not much different than if you’re on your way home and a robber puts a gun in your face and demands $800. In this case in disguised as professionalism.
Someday when your packing your kids off to go to the state university ( after two years of local community college ) they will be putting their kids in a new convertabel to go off to an expensive private school.
Was the job advertised as a 40 hr a week job? If so there are places like the wage and hour division of the Bureau of labor that may straighten the place out.
If they consistently make profits from your and others donated labor, sue them. They are behaving criminally.
You are a professional and paid for your time and not your hours. That doesn't mean you signed on for being robbed. Check the 13 th amendment.
As I said in another post Electricians on my current job get $2,500 + for working 60 hrs.
Find another job.

 

[whyun]

I once worked for an engineering firm that sells time, not services. Management preferred guys putting in 20 hours worth of work and show 50 hours on the timesheet over guys producing 50 hours worth of work in 40 hours.

Focus should be maximizing productivity within the chargeable hours. Overtime should be utilized only from time to time to get over the humps in the workload (power pellets in Pac-Man?) not a routine. If management refuses to acknowledge this, move on.

 

[Gymmeh]

Not to gloat also,

I work as a Mechanical design engineer and normally work 40hr a week, only 2 or 3 (i forget) weeks this year did I work +50hrs. Those weeks really big projects were being finished.

Its all in your boss, my boss is reasonable, if I need to get time off for my family its not a problem, we work something out.

I can also say I have an average salary for design engineer... I guess if you are asking to be payed well above average then maybe they expect you to work well above average. Other wise notify your boss and hope he is cool with working things out.

Just my two cent, good luck

 

[ewh]

csd, it is one thing to put in the extra time to meet a deadline when deadlines are usually realistic, but may have slipped for some reason. It is another thing totally to have to work the extra hours because your sales team are aquiring more work than the company can handle and new recruits are coming in at only a trickle compared to the new work. Been like that for five years here.

Not to gloat also II, after I was here for about 18 months, word gat around to my manager that I was putting feelers out for a different employer. He brought me into his office, offered me a demotion from engineer to designer, which allowed me to go from salaried-exempt to salaried non-exempt to qualify for OT with no change in salary. I enjoy my work, still have "unofficial" responsibilities which are usually reservered for exempts, and have been very happy with the change. I am also the only person here with that status (which does make me nervous when belt-tightening time comes around).

 

[MedicineEng]

I really hope that you guys are not wasting company time replying to this thread, or else your bosses will ask you to come to work on Saturdays also...