Uncompensated Overtime 7

[spongebob007]

Am I alone in not understanding why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"? It seems like from what I have read in many posts here and the attitude of many of my co-workers at my current employer that if you have chosen the field of engineering then 60 hour work weeks just come with the territory. Now don't get me wrong, I do enjoy engineering but when it comes right down to it, I work to live, not live to work.

Now as a salaried employee I realize that means that uncompensated overtime will be required, but I guess where I depart from what everyone else is that I feel it should be the exception and not the rule. Yes, I realize that stuff happens and in a crunch I might have to work 50,60, or even 70 hours a week to get through the crunch, but I don't feel like I should be expected to put in these kinds of hours every week. I do have a life outside of work you know.

I changed jobs a few months ago. When I was looking I was seriously in the running for another position besides my current employer. I wanted the other job more, but the money wasn't there (They really wanted to hire me but I think they also were really looking for a less senior person to work for less money), but the real tie breaker my current employer sold me on was the four day work weeks. Since I was giving up four weeks of vacation, I figured having every Friday off would make up for losing two weeks of vacation. After all, I looked back over the years and I usually only take one full week off. The rest of my vacation time went to taking long weekends throughout the year. It seemed like a deal too good to pass up.

So I took the job and quickly found out the off Fridays were a benefit that management really doesn't want engineers to use. We are already putting in a ten hour day M-Thurs. Management has repeatedly told engineering in department meetings that we are expected to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week. I really don't want to work 11.25 hour days to make it happen (frankly I'm not going to get 11 hours worth of work done anyway, my attention span just isn't that long.) The only real way to get the hours done in a reasonable way is to work on the off Fridays like many of my coworkers do. This aggravates me because they sold the four ten hour day work week as a benefit at my interview, but then basically tell me that if I want to keep my job I am pretty much going to have to work five days.

The reason is clear: My firm direct bills our customers for our hours. If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40. The more I work, the more profit the company makes. Now why the hell should I care? I just don't see what it in it for me. My impression of corporate America is that when times are good the fat cats in upper management take more than their fair share, and maybe, just maybe if you are a good little worker bee and sacrifice your life to the company, you might get thrown some table scraps from the feast, but when times are tough, it is the employees who are expected to make the sacrifices. To me it seems very one sided, I can give 150% but yet be walked out the door tomorrow simply due to a corporate takeover or the whim of some know nothing bean counter looking to boost margins.

 

[tbwttihs]

Your company's policy with regard to things like this - unless you work at a very small company where the individual can exert a large influence - is what it is, and you're probably not going to change it.

Normally, I work around 40 hours a week. I have always been of the opinion that if I'm regularly having to do more than this regularly, then this is a manpower issue and is the company's problem, not mine.

At the moment I work around 80 hours per week, but only for 6 months of the year, and the rest of the year I don't work (I'm on a 28/28 day rotation abroad). I regularly work more than 80 hours in the week, and this is fine too because I'm well rewarded for it (plus there's not much else to do there!).

Be bold - if you feel like you're being treated unfairly, say so. If it comes down to it, quit, and get a new job. If you can't afford to do this, then take it on the chin and accept that you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[dozer]

Charging for 60 hours and paying you for 40 hours is just plain unfair. I complained about this type of crap at a company I used to work and it got me no where. So I quit and went to a company that pays for every hour you work (though not a premium for overtime). Guess what? My previous company now compensates engineers for every hour worked.

Employers get away with this crap because they can, but remember you can vote with your feet.

 

[PBroad]

One reason for working unpaid overtime is because it is not illegal to require employees from doing so.

In Ontario The employee workplace standards applying to overtime and statutory holidays EXEMPTS "qualified practitioners of architecture, law, professional engineering, public accounting, surveying, and veterinary science; registered practitioners of chiropody (including podiatry), chiropractic, dentistry, massage therapy, medicine, optometry, pharmacy, physiotherapy or psychology;
registered practitioners under the Drugless Practitioners' Act (e.g., naturopaths, osteopaths) teachers, as defined in the Teaching Profession Act; and
students training for these professions."

 

[josephv]

Hello PBroad,

What you wrote is absolutely true.

Just wanted to add a few thoughts...

1) There should be standards regarding the amount of overtime a Professional Engineer works (considering that the public's safety is affected by our work)
2) Another reason unpaid overtime occurs is because we allow it. Stopping this is difficult, since many people can't afford to simply quit their jobs.
3) Professional Engineers should lobby to have workplace standards regarding overtime set up (there are standards regarding how we use our stamps, why not have standards regarding the hours we work?)

 

[csd72]

dozer makes a good point, talk with your feet.

 

[Gymmeh]

There are many professions with rules about how many hours one can work because it is "unsafe" and proven that lack of sleep results in bad decisions.

 

[KENAT]

Europe has some rules which to some extent cover engineers as I recall.



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[HgTX]

Gymmeh--there are, but not enough. Depriving medical residents of sleep is still considered to be some kind of necessary rite of passage, even though it's been demonstrated that when they're sleep-deprived they're more likely to kill us.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[ScottyUK]

Kenat,

That is the 'Working Time Directive" which covers the majority of workers but not those in utilities, rescue, police, armed forces , etc. It is well-intentioned and hopefully effective: it makes it unlawful for an employer to require more than 44 hours / week averaged over a long period (3 months? Can't remember) unless the employee agrees to opt out of the limit. Unfortunately I'm outside its scope so I can't comment for sure.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[rmw]

I have got a manager who always works about 1-1/2 hours past end of regular work hours and the first year I played along and obligatorily stayed too. None of the rest of the staff stays so usually it was just him and me. At the end of their work period they get up and march out but I am aware that some of them continue to function via telephone and laptop after hours from away from the office as we all do.

We moved offices nearer to where a gym is located where I can take aerobics and weight lifting classes at so I kind of announced that for the "good of the company" meaning that keeping my health up (and I am at an age where that is important and takes effort) is in the company's best interests, so I would have to leave exactly on time in order to be able to make my classes.

I still and he knows it because he is often copied or involved, use the laptop and Blackberry to conduct company business from home most evenings and lots of weekends, so I have no guilt about leaving when they said that my work day is supposed to end.

In his case, he forwards enough silly stuff and sports scores and the like during the day that I know that he isn't spending all his time slaving away at company business, so I don't feel compelled to stay late and match his 'dedication time' to make up for his wasted time during the day.

My job is a high percentage travel and that often involves weekend travel and after hours travel so the obligation to sit at my desk when I am in town just is lost on me. I lose a lot of personal time while away on company business and I don't want to lose any more staying late just to make them think that I am dedicated.

If that shows up on my next review, then some other company is going to get a good employee.

rmw

 

[jmw]

Uncompensated overtime?
The stock answer from management to engineers is "it goes with the territory".


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[BillBirch]

Spongebob007,
Sorry to get into this one so late, but it is a subject that has griped me in my thirty year career.
Companies expect us to behave totally different when representing their interests as opposed to our own.
WE are expected to give away a portion of all we have to offer (our labour), yet we are expected to safeguard the company's assets.
When dealing with contractual issues on behalf of the company, we are expected to craft or negotiate the most advantageous position for the company, yet employment contracts proposed to us are often unclear, deceitful and often illegal. (In one case, a French company I was working for, admitted that they knew that their employment contract was illegal, but suggested to "just sign it as it will not hold up in court!")
In the past, when I have had jobs with no overtime, but with all hours billed, I would work the extra hours for the "team", but only book forty.

 

[ScottyUK]

On a previous job with a previous employer I and a few colleagues refused outright to submit timesheets showing our true hours worked until we reached an agreement about overtime payment with our employer. We were working regular 80+ hour weeks, but we would book hours to Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday up to a total of 40 then book zero to the rest of the week. They were billing our time by the hour, then paying us for less than half of it. The client's project manager was a fantastic guy who supported our site team 100% and completely backed our little group in our efforts to get a fair deal. We all accepted working a few hours extra, but not working two weeks in one and being paid for one. We got our O/T paid - in a storm of acrimony - because the client's PM would only pay invoices where a timesheet was submitted.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[SomptingGuy]

Connected with the business travel thread, are people expected to travel on their own time? Weekends too?

- Steve

 

[Gymmeh]

I got paid while I was traveling. Although I dont get to do it much.

 

[jmw]

Ah, good question Steve.
In my experience I never did get paid for travelling and got "it goes with the territory" answer if I queried spending a week in the office and a weekend on site and not only didn't get travel time but didn't get paid for or days in lieu for my weekends.
Interestingly, the client would be billed for travel time and expenses at the standard rates. Its a sad old world.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[HgTX]

I get paid for travel time. I don't get paid for time stuck in a hotel room after work hours when I can't go about my normal business.

This pisses me off when they make me take an agency vehicle and then won't let me drive where I want with it during "my" time that they're not paying me for (I'm talkin' movie theater, not strip joint). I'd love to sit down and have a conversation sometime with the hypothetical taxpayer we're preserving our good image for and find out exactly how they imagine we should go about our lives. But really that's another rant for another time.

Hg


Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[SomptingGuy]

We are actually encouraged to travel during business hours. I've never worked out how though.

- Steve

 

[jmw]

I guess I should admit that I did get paid for travel time if I travelled when I would normally be at the office. But only by default, even they hesitated to deduct my salary for not being at the office during the hours they normally expected me to be there but many other employees would have cheered if they did since to many office bound employees, business travel, especially to exotic places such as an oil refinery in Siberia in the dead of winter, seemed to them to be a "jolly", a sort of expenses paid holiday]/i].
If I travelled outside of normal working hours, to bad; being paid an annual salary has its drawbacks compared to hourly paid staff. Try telling them "it goes with the territory" and like as not there'd be a strike.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Gymmeh]

HgTX, well the problem is we have gov't officials like Gov. Spitzer which spend 50k (more the avg. med. income of America) for a Night of “entertainment” at the expense of the tax payer. This results in making the little people suffer.