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Uncompensated Overtime 7

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spongebob007

Military
Sep 14, 2007
265
Am I alone in not understanding why I should be willing to sacrifice my free time "for the good of the company"? It seems like from what I have read in many posts here and the attitude of many of my co-workers at my current employer that if you have chosen the field of engineering then 60 hour work weeks just come with the territory. Now don't get me wrong, I do enjoy engineering but when it comes right down to it, I work to live, not live to work.

Now as a salaried employee I realize that means that uncompensated overtime will be required, but I guess where I depart from what everyone else is that I feel it should be the exception and not the rule. Yes, I realize that stuff happens and in a crunch I might have to work 50,60, or even 70 hours a week to get through the crunch, but I don't feel like I should be expected to put in these kinds of hours every week. I do have a life outside of work you know.

I changed jobs a few months ago. When I was looking I was seriously in the running for another position besides my current employer. I wanted the other job more, but the money wasn't there (They really wanted to hire me but I think they also were really looking for a less senior person to work for less money), but the real tie breaker my current employer sold me on was the four day work weeks. Since I was giving up four weeks of vacation, I figured having every Friday off would make up for losing two weeks of vacation. After all, I looked back over the years and I usually only take one full week off. The rest of my vacation time went to taking long weekends throughout the year. It seemed like a deal too good to pass up.

So I took the job and quickly found out the off Fridays were a benefit that management really doesn't want engineers to use. We are already putting in a ten hour day M-Thurs. Management has repeatedly told engineering in department meetings that we are expected to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week. I really don't want to work 11.25 hour days to make it happen (frankly I'm not going to get 11 hours worth of work done anyway, my attention span just isn't that long.) The only real way to get the hours done in a reasonable way is to work on the off Fridays like many of my coworkers do. This aggravates me because they sold the four ten hour day work week as a benefit at my interview, but then basically tell me that if I want to keep my job I am pretty much going to have to work five days.

The reason is clear: My firm direct bills our customers for our hours. If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40. The more I work, the more profit the company makes. Now why the hell should I care? I just don't see what it in it for me. My impression of corporate America is that when times are good the fat cats in upper management take more than their fair share, and maybe, just maybe if you are a good little worker bee and sacrifice your life to the company, you might get thrown some table scraps from the feast, but when times are tough, it is the employees who are expected to make the sacrifices. To me it seems very one sided, I can give 150% but yet be walked out the door tomorrow simply due to a corporate takeover or the whim of some know nothing bean counter looking to boost margins.
 
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... and about those TPS reports... great.
 
You dont need to come in on saturdays, you should be still there after your friday all nighter...
 
What is the tent for? you will be too busy to sleep!
 
so you can power nap all week long, and never have to leave the office
 
thats the spirit! 23:45 days with 15 minutes for a power nap.
 
Just about every company I have worked was 40 hours unless something was late or had to get out right away.

My current employer is just the opposite. Work is your life. If you dont have enough time to get something done then you stay all night until its done. Doesn't matter that the request was unreasonable to begin with. Our engineers work 12 hour days. They live here and even come in on their days off.

To each his own if they want to work like that. Not me!

My employer takes everything you give and leaves you with nothing. We have to work until 5. Now thats fine but if I worked late the previous day and want to leave at 4 the next then apparently they have a problem with me. The door should swing both ways. As long as I got my 40 (or 60!) in it shouldn't matter if I want to leave early here and there. If I had known it would be 60 for a normal week I would not have taken the job.

Some employers have that "you wash our back and we'll, oh! wait! we dropped the soap! can you bend over and pick that up for us?" philosophy ;)
 
"The reason is clear: My firm direct bills our customers for our hours. If I work 60 hours this week, the customer gets billed 60 hours, but I get paid for 40."

This is very unfair and quite possibly illegal (as others have stated). Spongebob, there are companies that bill customers 60 hours and pay their employees for the full 60. That is where you want to be, I think.
 
Playing devils advocate here:

I would think it unlikely that every hour you work is a billable hour.

There are also hours where you are sick, have no work to do, in training e.t.c. e.t.c.

So saying that they bill for every one of your hours is a bit OTT.

As a salary earner, you should expect to do occasional couple of hours extra time, this is just part and parcel of being a salary earner. If you dont like it, become a contract worker.
 
"There are also hours where you are sick, have no work to do, in training e.t.c. e.t.c."

That's called overhead. Someone paid a salary of $50 an hour is not billed out at $50 an hour. IT's more likely $175-250+ an hour, not all of which is profit.

 
BJC, I wish I can bill at those hourly rates for $50/hour employee.
 
I don't believe it's illegal (as stated by some here) to bill a client 60 hours and pay 40. Happens all the time, for example in the case of lawyers who work for a firm. At least in the US.
 
Well fellows I'm sorry for your dilemma but that’s why I never wanted to be a Mechanical Engineer. I was a Union Mechanic, Supervisor and Craft Head with the County of L.A. UA local 250 for 28 years and I always got paid time and one half for over time. I know I made much more then many Mechanical Engineers and I loved every year of it as I was given all the responsibility I felt I could handle, in all the positions I had such as a Refrigeration and Steam fitting Mechanic, Supervisor of a 25 man crew where we did maintenance,service,and retrofit of old equipment. I did all of the estimating and application engineering of new chillers, boilers, cooling towers, computer rooms, laid out and ran the various crafts as we were the lead craft on most jobs. The last 5 years I was promoted to the Craft Head position where I was in charge of all the refrigeration mechanics, steamfitters, apprentices, helpers, and their supervisors. I was never bored or had someone looking over my shoulder, however, it was understood that I was responsible for the outcome on each job, that at times was quite stressful but hay you only live once so I went for the full Monty. Did I ever fail, yes, sometimes but it was nothing we couldn't fix. I always asked for other people's opinion even a helper. You never know who has a good solution for a particular problem, besides it makes other people feel good that you ask them what they think.
 
Work isnt your life - its what you do for a life. When you start to work lots of hours and you get paid a set rate the only people winning are the company.

Dont put up with it - get ready to move and start to look else where as working for this sort of outfit only serves to make you bitter. Why let them get away with it. You wouldnt rent out a house for four days and let them live in it for seven would you ? So why give em 60 hours and only accept 40 hours pay ? fair rate of pay for a fair bit of effort. If the company has perks and compensates you in other ways then yeah maybe but it has to be some pretty good perks to make up for time away from family.

Ive seen guys live and breathe the company, then suddenly be paid off and think why did I bother investing so much in it and nothing to show....
 
I think everything has to do with equilibrium, a very dear state of physics. I am willing to give an extra effort to a determinate project on the assumption that if I need to take some time off or handle some personal issue I will not be seen as a slacker. If I scratch others' back when it's itching I expect the same treatment...I don't count my overtime to the minute, and I am sure that I give more time than I get in these deals, but I am happy with it. Also we are speaking about a couple of hours in a week, so no big deal for me.
I am used to make some overtime, but always in a project base, meaning that if I dont'need to stay, I will make my predefined schedule and that's it. Up to now, I had the luck to have managers that understood and were fair in this deal. But there is a lot of stories out there that this deal is only one way street.
This is unaceptable for me.
 

BJC,

normal charge out rate in my industry is 2.5 to 3 times the pay rate. Overheads are often equal to salaries so this does not leave a huge amount of room for profit.

My point was just that saying I will work 40 hours and not a minute more is a little over the top. A few extra hours is not going to break your back, but say 10 extra hours every week is a bit too much on current engineers salaries.

imok2 made avery good point,

There are less educated people out there making more money than professional engineers, so why should we bust our ass for the type of salaries we are getting.
 
Whether you'll endure 40, 50, 60 or 70 hours or work for them to get your "40 hour" paycheck is up to you. You're not a slave. Go get another job.

-b
 
csd72, why are less educated people making more money then PE's?

One part of my brain thinks:
Good machinists are hard to find and worth every doller?

The Other side thinks:
Why did my current employer fire about 300 union workers and move the majority of the operation to Mexico? Then re-hire only 5 non-union workers/machinists? Why are we shipping more product now?

Why do the same x-union workers complain that they lost their jobs and that manufacturing is going over seas or that the management is trying to replace them with a robot or other automated process?

Why don't the engineers here lose their jobs?

I agree with medicines philosophy
 
I'm working for a power generator so we're a 24/7/365 operation. I'm employed on regular weekdays, dayshift hours. We get a reasonable, although by no means stellar, salary and benefits package compared with our peers in the industry. We work a lot of strange hours: weekends, nights, 16 hour double shifts, all day and all night now and then. I've slept on site once or twice.

I accept that 'stuff happens' [wink] and it usually happens at 1600 on a Friday (The 'Four O'Clock Friday Foul-up Factor') and that in our business it needs dealing with regardless of time of day or night. What really irritates me is the arrogance of our godforsaken personnel department who refuse to recognise the sacrifices we make in ruined plans and abandoned arrangements to support the business, usually at near-zero notice. They refuse to either remunerate us for our efforts or sanction time off in lieu once things are back on an even keel. In their eyes we're just regular office guys.

As a result of HR's pig-headed stance there's a lot of unofficial give and take which allows us to recover some of our lost time. We're a creative lot, us engineers. This year I've been a lot more militant in taking back my time and I don't feel guilty about doing so.

The final crime of each year perpetrated by our HR department is that they pay us a offensively small sum in return for us being on a 1-in-6 callout rota and then have the nerve to call it a 'bonus'. A bloody bonus?? Just let 'em ask if I'm pleased with my callout 'bonus'...



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