Compositepro
Chemical
I'm not a woman, and this topic is not of great interest to me, but this blog was quite interesting:
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Women in Engineering. 61
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But what if we don't tell you, we just simply encourage to become something, because we don't have enough women (or someone thinks we don't have enough).
I sort of have an issue with the term 'encourage', which might mean to encourage someone who might be better at something else.
I sort of have an issue with the term 'encourage', which might mean to encourage someone who might be better at something else.
cranky, you're way overthinking this.
I cannot count the number of times I've gotten treated poorly, or ignored, or snarked at, or not believed, or patted on the head (isn't she cute, she thinks she's an engineer), because I'm a female and wanted to be/am an engineer. My mom is a nuclear physicist and would show up at conferences AS THE EXPERT and get told that the wives aren't allowed in the meetings. Studies clearly show that girls in elementary school love math and science, and are good at it, but by middle school, they're being told it's not cool/girly/makes them less attractive or other nonsense and the numbers start dropping rapidly. When there's so much discouragement out there, blasting at girls like a jet engine, it's SUPER important to balance that with proper encouragement.
The goal isn't to have women in STEM who can't do it, just to get the numbers up, just like the goal isn't to have men in STEM who can't do it. The goal is to not get in the way of the females who can, and to nurture that ability instead of smushing it.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
I cannot count the number of times I've gotten treated poorly, or ignored, or snarked at, or not believed, or patted on the head (isn't she cute, she thinks she's an engineer), because I'm a female and wanted to be/am an engineer. My mom is a nuclear physicist and would show up at conferences AS THE EXPERT and get told that the wives aren't allowed in the meetings. Studies clearly show that girls in elementary school love math and science, and are good at it, but by middle school, they're being told it's not cool/girly/makes them less attractive or other nonsense and the numbers start dropping rapidly. When there's so much discouragement out there, blasting at girls like a jet engine, it's SUPER important to balance that with proper encouragement.
The goal isn't to have women in STEM who can't do it, just to get the numbers up, just like the goal isn't to have men in STEM who can't do it. The goal is to not get in the way of the females who can, and to nurture that ability instead of smushing it.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
"Studies clearly show that girls in elementary school love math and science, and are good at it, but by middle school, they're being told it's not cool/girly/makes them less attractive or other nonsense"
Happened during my schooling; Nora and Mary were awesomely smart at math in grade school and junior high. But, in high school, neither took anything that resembled either honors or AP; Nora still got a 4.0 at graduation and was valedictorian, but still... Of all the girls that started high school as high achievers, only one stayed the course, and she went on to get doctorate, etc.
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Happened during my schooling; Nora and Mary were awesomely smart at math in grade school and junior high. But, in high school, neither took anything that resembled either honors or AP; Nora still got a 4.0 at graduation and was valedictorian, but still... Of all the girls that started high school as high achievers, only one stayed the course, and she went on to get doctorate, etc.
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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I am a girl, smart, good at math, and without any particular career agendas ... twenty years ago. I am good at what I do and structural engineering is better for what I've given. So, what? We had kids, and yes, it takes you away from work. Please, pay me less than the guys who never stopped working. And as a business owner, 2008 we hit hard times, and yes, pull back, eat macaroni, cut staff, try to survive. Lawyers ... ewww, nevermind. I do not think that what we identify as people matters to the job. Do your job. Do it well. Quit worrying about your sex, color, or what others find to be fair.
MacGruber22
Structural
My wife is a teacher and is talked to like a child here and there. I don't have any female colleagues, but I can only imagine it is at least as much of a hurdle. Further, in building construction I find contractors definitely have "types" of which they do not like to take direction from. Women in all professions deserve better than the falsehood of requiring to prove themselves to men before being treated on character and skill. I imagine this intimidation drives many women from persuing engineering. I strongly support the effort of encouragement in STEM programs.[sup][/sup]
"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."
"It is imperative Cunth doesn't get his hands on those codes."
Maybe the comments on intimidation should be directed to the education area.
I don't see my daughter being turned off from high school math, and in fact I am in hopes that I remember enough calculus to still be able to check her math for her. But to be honest she is not in a public school, because I was so unhappy when I was in a public school decades ago. So maybe the school is the difference, or you get what you paid for.
I don't see my daughter being turned off from high school math, and in fact I am in hopes that I remember enough calculus to still be able to check her math for her. But to be honest she is not in a public school, because I was so unhappy when I was in a public school decades ago. So maybe the school is the difference, or you get what you paid for.
I was in AP physics at a prestigious private high school, and was treated like crap by the male teacher and other students (all of whom were male). My mom had a meeting with the Dean of Students and the teacher, who seriously claimed he never realized he treated me any differently. 5 years after high school, one of my fellow students looked me up and apologized for the way they all treated me. It's just crazy.
I love this thread, because it's helping people think about this topic, and having it simply in your awareness makes it less likely to happen. Cheers, y'all.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
I love this thread, because it's helping people think about this topic, and having it simply in your awareness makes it less likely to happen. Cheers, y'all.
Please remember: we're not all guys!
Thing is, when I was at school seems the opposite was true to some extent. There was a bunch of focus on encouraging female students into Engineering with special events, organizations & scholarships etc.
On the other hand I don't remember anyone ever really encouraging me to go into engineering - or for that matter any other field - until I actually went to university recruitment events and even then it was up to me to initiate the conversations and it was more about what school than what subject. I think there was maybe one general scholarship for folks going into Engineering but I remember the ones for women being advertized a lot more.
Whether this was because of the way the schools I went to operated, or a more general time & geography difference from many posters or some unique KENAT issues I don't know but certainly impacts the way I perceive things even though I try to keep in mind the old adage about walking a mile in your moccasins.
On the other hand I don't remember anyone ever really encouraging me to go into engineering - or for that matter any other field - until I actually went to university recruitment events and even then it was up to me to initiate the conversations and it was more about what school than what subject. I think there was maybe one general scholarship for folks going into Engineering but I remember the ones for women being advertized a lot more.
Whether this was because of the way the schools I went to operated, or a more general time & geography difference from many posters or some unique KENAT issues I don't know but certainly impacts the way I perceive things even though I try to keep in mind the old adage about walking a mile in your moccasins.
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What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Yesterday was National Women in Engineering Day here in the UK. I didn't hear much about any of the events or which companies/schools participated. Things are happening to try to get women interested but they don't seem to be pushing very hard to get noticed. They may just have to accept that there isn't hoards and hoards of women that want to be engineers.
HamburgerHelper
Electrical
Only 40% of engineering graduates go into engineering. There isn't exactly a shortage of fresh grads or an abundance of entry level positions. I would be against recruiting anyone but I would be all for accommodating anyone that has interest in the field. What accommodating means, I don't know. The few women that I graduated with went into engineering at a lower rate than men even though they were just as competent, if that means anything.
HamburgerHelper
Electrical
SLTA,
One I knew was supporting herself through school with a very unusual gig that paid $400/hr. I think she picked engineering as a major just because she was good at math in science. When she graduated, I don't think she had the interest or desire to make less by going into engineering. As far as I know ten years later, she still hasn't entered the conventional workforce. I don't know why the others didn't go into engineering.
I went to school in a pretty liberal area and don't think female engineers were treated much differently. I think though that if a guy struggles with a tool like a soldering iron, people think "he will pick it up quickly. He just needs time" and with a girl there is a fear that she has never picked up a tool before.
In the south, I have seen more that might ward off female engineers, which has amounted to just flat out not hiring some female engineers, open dislike towards the hassle and expense of pregnant employees, or only hiring those that can take a "joke". Places like this are probably becoming more of the exception than the rule but they still exist.
One I knew was supporting herself through school with a very unusual gig that paid $400/hr. I think she picked engineering as a major just because she was good at math in science. When she graduated, I don't think she had the interest or desire to make less by going into engineering. As far as I know ten years later, she still hasn't entered the conventional workforce. I don't know why the others didn't go into engineering.
I went to school in a pretty liberal area and don't think female engineers were treated much differently. I think though that if a guy struggles with a tool like a soldering iron, people think "he will pick it up quickly. He just needs time" and with a girl there is a fear that she has never picked up a tool before.
In the south, I have seen more that might ward off female engineers, which has amounted to just flat out not hiring some female engineers, open dislike towards the hassle and expense of pregnant employees, or only hiring those that can take a "joke". Places like this are probably becoming more of the exception than the rule but they still exist.
moltenmetal
Chemical
SLTA- the stats here in Ontario is that about 92% of 4th year students of engineering in 2013 either definitely or probably would seek a career in engineering. Very few decided by 4th year that they will not seek a career in engineering. Those stats have been fairly consistent through the ~ 5 yrs that PEO has been doing that poll of 4th year students.
What changes their minds? Overwhelmingly it's the market- that goes for both men and women. Most have their minds made up for them right from graduation. If they fail to find that 1st job, most lose their profession for good.
Are women disproportionately deterred? Yes, they are. From the Canadian Census (2011 National Household Survey), around 22% of female engineering grads worked as engineers or engineering managers, which is lower than the average of all eng grads (~30%). ~40% of femal eng grads worked in professional occupations of any kind (including engineering/management), which is slightly higher than their male counterparts (~37%), but more women (~39%) worked in jobs not requiring a university degree much less a degree in engineering, i.e. jobs deemed to be underemployment- higher than men (~32%). These figures are all from the OSPE underemployment report which I've linked to several times now- it is a very thorough analysis of what engineering grads are actually doing, rather than the bullshit you constantly hear in the media about shortages.
What changes their minds? Overwhelmingly it's the market- that goes for both men and women. Most have their minds made up for them right from graduation. If they fail to find that 1st job, most lose their profession for good.
Are women disproportionately deterred? Yes, they are. From the Canadian Census (2011 National Household Survey), around 22% of female engineering grads worked as engineers or engineering managers, which is lower than the average of all eng grads (~30%). ~40% of femal eng grads worked in professional occupations of any kind (including engineering/management), which is slightly higher than their male counterparts (~37%), but more women (~39%) worked in jobs not requiring a university degree much less a degree in engineering, i.e. jobs deemed to be underemployment- higher than men (~32%). These figures are all from the OSPE underemployment report which I've linked to several times now- it is a very thorough analysis of what engineering grads are actually doing, rather than the bullshit you constantly hear in the media about shortages.
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@SLTA-
I had a similar point in my earlier life where I recall a couple engineering students I'd known for a long time (went to the same junior & high schools) that were in the same pre-engineering program at the time, with the same plans to go to the same engineering school for our BS at least. But a couple friends and I were absolutely unacceptably rude and dismissive of these two girls who were absolutely our equals. I would be angered if I didn't do as well one of the women who liked to stoke the competitiveness between us. If one of my male friends performed better I'd just be disappointed in myself and say "Damn he's good. I could learn something from him."
That same aspiring engineer (the female) gave me a tongue lashing one day in front of a few friends and it was a much needed wake-up. I was still a 19 year old idiot cursed with extended deeply ingrained biases, but it did, for the first time, sort of waken me to an empathy that was too late to save what could have been a valuable friendship. Haven't seen hide nor hair of her since college days. She could be launching rockets or bringing power to impoverish nations these days for all I know.
It's sad that it took until I was 19 to even begin looking inward. I see it all too often. The inability to open your eyes to such a sexism. The inability to have some basic human empathy for those around you, or a large. It is very sad. All I can do is be a better example for my son than I had at his age, encourage all his friends the same, keep the dialogue non-exclusive, and hope for the best.
_______
Sorry for the tangent... SLTA's comment brought back a moment in my past I'll always regret. Figured it was relevant. It was at least in the engineering context.
Perhaps the lesson is that before you can identify or fix something - you have to realize whether or not you're seeing the problem fully, or at least a significant portion at all.
I had a similar point in my earlier life where I recall a couple engineering students I'd known for a long time (went to the same junior & high schools) that were in the same pre-engineering program at the time, with the same plans to go to the same engineering school for our BS at least. But a couple friends and I were absolutely unacceptably rude and dismissive of these two girls who were absolutely our equals. I would be angered if I didn't do as well one of the women who liked to stoke the competitiveness between us. If one of my male friends performed better I'd just be disappointed in myself and say "Damn he's good. I could learn something from him."
That same aspiring engineer (the female) gave me a tongue lashing one day in front of a few friends and it was a much needed wake-up. I was still a 19 year old idiot cursed with extended deeply ingrained biases, but it did, for the first time, sort of waken me to an empathy that was too late to save what could have been a valuable friendship. Haven't seen hide nor hair of her since college days. She could be launching rockets or bringing power to impoverish nations these days for all I know.
It's sad that it took until I was 19 to even begin looking inward. I see it all too often. The inability to open your eyes to such a sexism. The inability to have some basic human empathy for those around you, or a large. It is very sad. All I can do is be a better example for my son than I had at his age, encourage all his friends the same, keep the dialogue non-exclusive, and hope for the best.
_______
Sorry for the tangent... SLTA's comment brought back a moment in my past I'll always regret. Figured it was relevant. It was at least in the engineering context.
Perhaps the lesson is that before you can identify or fix something - you have to realize whether or not you're seeing the problem fully, or at least a significant portion at all.
There are lots of women in STEM academia- particularly in "soft" fields like environmental engineering.
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JNieman has the guts to admit it, so I should too. I also remember saying crude and insulting things, all in the name of childish jokes. Interestingly, my solution has also been to raise my son to be much more sensitive to others. I hope it works.
STF
STF
I think that children can often see through the hypocrisy of adults, so they learn pretty early on the concept of, "Do as I say, and not as I do." For example, we teach our children not to swear or say bad things about other people, but, almost all of us will get caught doing one or both before the kids even get to kindergarten. That's probably partly why we've made so little progress on a number of fronts, like sexism, racism, ageism, smoking, drinking, etc.
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
faq731-376 forum1529
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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moltenmetal
Chemical
Children see through the hypocrisy of adults, but they also rather quickly sit in judgment of adults. Their opinions evolve with the zeitgeist. The kids' cranky uncle's racist or homophobic comments are more likely to generate quiet sneers of derision than converts to his point of view.
Societal attitudes are evolving, and for the better. It's important though that we be realistic about the desired outcome and the pace of that change, and the methods used to effect that change.
Societal attitudes are evolving, and for the better. It's important though that we be realistic about the desired outcome and the pace of that change, and the methods used to effect that change.
"The kids' cranky uncle's racist or homophobic comments are more likely to generate quiet sneers of derision than converts to his point of view."
I'm unconvinced about the "more likely," given that we made very SLOW progress in the areas of attitudes about race and sex, despite what we claim or think. There are obvious examples of children of neo-Nazis rejecting their upbringing, but that seems to be the exception, not even a minority. If you go to any store's toy aisles, there is at least one aisle that is unmistakably "girl" oriented, simply by the profusion of pink, and the toys in that aisle are hardly STEM oriented. Even today, studies still show that girls are less likely to be encouraged to pursue STEM-related schooling, particularly when the classes are coed. Tallness, whiteness, maleness, still seem to override technical knowhow and skill. STEM acolytes are still considered nerdy or geeky, although there is some pushback in touting geekiness as a radical "chic." The latest fashion in the that area are fake horn-rimmed glasses.
Current studies continue to show a latent bias against minorities, even without anything visual, i.e., only names that connote black or Latino roots are discriminated in favor of more traditional WASP names, even when using identical resumes with only the names being different.
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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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I'm unconvinced about the "more likely," given that we made very SLOW progress in the areas of attitudes about race and sex, despite what we claim or think. There are obvious examples of children of neo-Nazis rejecting their upbringing, but that seems to be the exception, not even a minority. If you go to any store's toy aisles, there is at least one aisle that is unmistakably "girl" oriented, simply by the profusion of pink, and the toys in that aisle are hardly STEM oriented. Even today, studies still show that girls are less likely to be encouraged to pursue STEM-related schooling, particularly when the classes are coed. Tallness, whiteness, maleness, still seem to override technical knowhow and skill. STEM acolytes are still considered nerdy or geeky, although there is some pushback in touting geekiness as a radical "chic." The latest fashion in the that area are fake horn-rimmed glasses.
Current studies continue to show a latent bias against minorities, even without anything visual, i.e., only names that connote black or Latino roots are discriminated in favor of more traditional WASP names, even when using identical resumes with only the names being different.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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