Fun with thermometers in Oz 3

• Apr 14, 2023

• #1

GregLocock

Automotive

Apr 10, 2001

23,540

A dispute over how the Bureau of Meteorology records daily temperatures is hotting up, with the release of more than 1000 pages of data that show new probes can record different temperatures to mercury thermometers in the same location at the same time.

The documents, released after a years-long Freedom of Information campaign, show temperature measurements taken using updated BOM probes in automatic weather stations at the Brisbane Airport site could be up to 0.7C warmer than the temperature taken using a traditional thermometer at the same time at the same site.

More than three years after a FOI request for parallel data was lodged by scientist John Abbot, the BOM released three years of data on Easter eve after the matter was taken to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.


In the end, the BOM released only limited data, paving the way for a wave of FOI demands that full records be released in the public interest.

Release of the data is the first opportunity to analyse the performance of BOM probes alongside mercury thermometers. The bureau has long claimed the readings are identical but critics have said the BOM was not following World Met­eor­­ological Organisation guidelines on how they should be used.

0.7 degrees eh? So if that's consistent, about half the warming BoM reported since 1900 is due to change of instrumentation. Oops.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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• Apr 15, 2023

• #2

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

It should be fairly easy to determine the temperature of an object and corroborate what the 'real' temperature is; it shouldn't matter what method you use, but you will have the 'real' temperature. Whether the object is representative of what you are trying to measure is another issue.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 15, 2023

• #3

TugboatEng

Marine/Ocean

Nov 1, 2015

11,627

Is it really so easy? I've NEVER heard a climate scientist compare wet bulb and dry bulb temperatures. I don't think they really understand what they're talking about.

 

• Apr 15, 2023

• Thread starter
• #4

GregLocock

Automotive

Apr 10, 2001

23,540

Apparently they take the maximum spike see during the day rather than averaging for one minute, the WMO recommendation.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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• Apr 15, 2023

• #5

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

If there's a standard, then they should use it and publish their use of it... so 10 years down the road, they are measuring the same way.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 15, 2023

• #6

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

So tug, what do they do... publish all temperature recordings as wet bulb and dry bulb? That would lead to more confusion for people that don't know the difference. Dry bulb is OK... the one most people are familiar with.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #7

TugboatEng

Marine/Ocean

Nov 1, 2015

11,627

I truely believe most climate scientists don't know the difference nor do they know the significance. That's why the data isn't published. They've already made their assumptions.

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #8

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

I think it would just add to the confusion... not that they don't understand the difference. With increased temperature there would be increased humidity... but, not everywhere. There are places where the temperature goes up, and the humidity drops. I'm not so sure the added data will do anything, but confuse matters.

The key things to watch for are temperature and precipitation.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #9

TugboatEng

Marine/Ocean

Nov 1, 2015

11,627

Add to the confusion? It's an incredibly important metric. Even us dumb sailors get trained on wet bulb and dry bulb thermometers. Those of us that go a little further and do some engineering school even learn how to use psychometric charts.

Many climate scientists' entire careers revolve around measuring atmospheric temperature and they can't even make one of the most basic weather observations?

And they do report it to us plebes. It's how relative humidity is calculated. More basically, it's reported as 80 degrees but feels like 90.

And it matters extremely because the humidity changes the specific heat of the air by factors of 10!

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #10

rb1957

Aerospace

Apr 15, 2005

15,815

ok, but humidity changes constantly so how do you compare temperatures from different humidities ? Convert the wet bulb to some standard humidity ?

but I get what you're saying. we need to understand the specific heat of the atmosphere (as well as the composition, % CO2) in order to really understand how the atmosphere will respond.
but that'd messy the relationship between CO2 and temperature, by adding in the humidity, and that'd highlight the role of humidity.

But, I guess, climate scientists know (believe?, hope??) that humidity changes with temperature ?
and we don't want to muddy the temperature record (such as it is ?) with local humidity changes (dur to local weather).

is it better to have bad data than no data ? (rhetorical, bad data is much worse than no data)

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #11

TugboatEng

Marine/Ocean

Nov 1, 2015

11,627

The claim is that CO2 causes heating of our atmosphere. Heat is not measured in temperature. If scientists can't figure that most basic detail out then why do we still call them scientists? Why are we volunteering to throw out entire society in the dumpster to appease these "scientists"?

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #12

rb1957

Aerospace

Apr 15, 2005

15,815

buttt, I have a model that shows increasing CO2 increase temperature ... and it a lovely and complicated model, with masses of inputs and outputs ...
anddd there are literally thousands of scholarly and scientific papers written every year confirming this ...

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #13

hokie66

Structural

Jul 19, 2006

22,827

Yes, the cult has a lot of followers. Gullibility is endemic. But those cult leaders who know better are just following the money.

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #14

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

I guess we'll have to wait and find out, hokie...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #15

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

The CO₂ acts as a blanket of insulation, preventing the heat from radiating into space... just like a greenhouse... that's why they're called greenhouse gasses. That's what causes the planet to heat up.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #16

TugboatEng

Marine/Ocean

Nov 1, 2015

11,627

Yes CO2 makes the planet heat up, not temperature up.

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #17

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

Unfortunately when the heat goes up, the temperature does the same.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #18

TugboatEng

Marine/Ocean

Nov 1, 2015

11,627

That is not true.

If you put more water into the atmosphere you can decrease temperature while increasing heat.

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #19

dik

Structural

Apr 13, 2001

25,905

I guess we have our opinions... how does the more water get into the atmosphere? just curious... maybe by heat? It's warming up by temperature measurements. In addition the humidity is increasing... maybe it's warming up even more than the temperature indicates?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

• Apr 16, 2023

• #20

Tomfh

Structural

Feb 27, 2005

3,453

Greg said:

site could be up to 0.7C warmer than the temperature taken using a traditional thermometer at the same time at the same site.

Click to expand...

Yes the modern thermometers can capture finer spikes than the older models, so you capture higher spikes.

Plus, BOM rounds down older spikes with statistical algorithms when generating their Acorn historical data set.

Increase recent spikes, reduce past spike, and the result is this graph, where “extreme heat events” occur fifty times as frequently today as they did 100 years ago.

It’s a tragedy that scientific literacy in our country is so poor, and the media and general population so compliant, that graphs like this are swallowed without question.