Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii 40

Google updates the satellite image to show the burn damage except for the populated areas.



The Mayor is apparently a moron. When asked why they didn't activate the emergency alert system his response was, "we asked them to shelter in place and they didn't listen anyways".

It's a good thing most didn't listen to the Mayor.

Hawaii as a whole is unprepared for wildfires, and has done nothing to lessen their occurrence. Now, they can only hope that the other islands don't suffer the same fate as Maui.

Were the people who died people who evacuated or people who sheltered in place?

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Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

It's not like Hawaii's the only place unprepared for wildfires, most places where they are not common, and a lot of places where they are, are unprepared.

I'd like to research historical fires in Maui but Google's algorithms are getting more difficult to work around.

It's my impression that common Hawaiian construction uses a lot of wood, and has a lot of open sides to catch the breeze.

Very nice if there's no fire, but......


spsalso

JStephen said:

It's not like Hawaii's the only place unprepared for wildfires, most places where they are not common, and a lot of places where they are, are unprepared.

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I was a child in Santa Cruz during the 1989 earthquake. One of the greatest monetary losses from the earthquake was liquor store inventory. I specifically remember the wires on the shelves added later to keep the bottles in place. Those wires have all been gone for 15 years now.

On that note, I have a few free standing shelves I need to strap to the walls. I'll do it before the next earthquake, I swear.

The Australian experience is that modifying the building regs to make houses more fireproof doesn't make much difference. They are still wrecked. The important thing is not to be a hero and just leave it to burn. If you have a swimming pool and a big diesel pump you might save your house, at some personal risk.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

At least 67 dead.

There was a wildfire a few years ago there that took some 20 buildings. It was a clear warning.

The coverage showed dozens of cars burned to a crisp and one family said they were stuck in the traffic jam and bailed when the cars ahead burst into flames - over the sea wall and into the ocean. During the next 4 hours the tide came in and they were beaten against the rock wall until they got farther back. I assume that means that they were treading water or trying to float for a long time. I also expect a number of people died from drowning, maybe from being overcome by the smoke.

They knew the fire was out of control by about 10am. It reached the city by 4:45pm when it cut off the bypass. Not until 10pm was an emergency declared, though some evacuation notices were sent by cell phone - the service for which was cut early on by the fire. The claim is the emergency sirens were not used.


This from November 2022:

They didn't have the wind on the previous event.

IMO, fire can be a pernicious thing. It could be a leap to go from "a flare up north of town" to "evacuate the town." With today's communications, a public notice may be quick and easy but panic or unnecessary concern/distress could also result if messaging was not implemented appropriately or if the public is not accustomed to receive/digest it.

Fire storms are not a common experience.

Add this to the long list of Urban Conflagrations

[URL unfurl="true" said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflagration[/URL]]An urban conflagration is defined as a "large, destructive fire that spreads beyond natural or artificial barriers; it can be expected to result in large monetary loss and may or may not include fatalities. An urban conflagration moves beyond a block and destroys whole sections of a city."

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Structures can be made from non combustible of fire resistant material, and could be provided with safe rooms designed to protect from fire conditions. Keeping the furnishings fire resistant, and maintain the fire resistance for the life of the structure is unlikely, as that requires constant vigilance against a low probability event.
Essentially the same problem we face maintaining HAZOP compliance.

Consider the spread of a fire due to winds.
With a light breeze, the fire will spread mostly by contact on the downwind side.
As the wind speed increases, the speedthat the fire spreads, as a percentage of the wind speed increases.
In a very high wind, the fire is vigorously fanned and a lot of airborne burning embers are produced.
The winds in Lahaina were reported at 60 MPH to 80 MPH.
We can expect that burning debris was carried ahead of the fire and spread the fire at close to that speed.

There was one report that the sirens were not intended to trigger an evacuation.
The intended purpose of the sirens was to alert the public to an emergency situation.
The intent was that the public would then use radio, TV or cell phones to find the reason for the siren alert.
The suggestion that the sirens were not used to avoid public panic may be "Cover Your ASSEts" BS.

That said, in a fast moving situation like this, plans fall apart and Stuff happens.
Who was responsible for sounding the siren and why did they not sound the alarm?
I suggest that it was not the result of dereliction of duty of a few individuals but rather a lack of planning and training.
A quote from a Sean Connery movie may be appropriate;
"Don't fix the blame. Fix the problem."
It happened.
It is tragic.
It is upsetting.
What to do?
For any community that may be subject to a natural disaster;
Fire, earthquake, flooding.
Anticipate, plan, train staff.
Too much blame fixing tends to lead to justification of the system and may hinder efforts to improve the system.
People everywhere may be justified in asking their city leaders;
"What are our emergency contingency plans?"
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

From another source for the high winds:

"High pressure created strong trade winds, across the eastern Pacific Ocean. Hurricane Dora, passed 750 miles south of Hawaii strengthening pressure gradient across the Pacific Ocean and enhancing wind gusts. Some of the wind gusts across Hawaii were 67 to 82 mph."

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

For another perspective, in the link, it is season 1 Episode 6, or (S1, E6)to watch, and start at the 8:59 area. Will have to listen farther for the details.
High ranking Italian officials are interviewed.

???

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Too much reliance on cell phones, which did not work. When warnings were most needed, power and cell service were already lost.

For emergency warnings, power supply should be part of the system, I would suggest.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

Typical cell towers have battery backup. What they don't have is fire-proof wiring.

Emergency warning systems should have reasonably fire resistant power systems...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik