Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii 40

[3DDave]

Another wild fire sweeping through a residential area - it leads me to wonder if exterior sprinkler systems, particularly for roofs, would be sufficient to slow the progress of such fires.

I noted a multi-story apartment or hotel that was generally intact, suffering some interior fire which the sprinkler system may have stopped. The roof was untouched simply from height and the exterior which appeared to be brick - likely the windows or their frames failed in the heat. It was surrounded by ash.

As they are on the ocean the supply of water suitable to the use is well available as long as power for pumps is available. Besides electric pumps, pumps directly driven by diesel and the possibility of adding fire boats pumping water to the system seems worth considering. It's along the ocean so additional salt water should be more acceptable than fire.

 

[dik]

likely is good... very likely might be pushing it. There was both aridification as well as strong winds, and both these would increase damage... nuff said.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Who said there was aridification? I don't see any mention of it before this fire.

 

[TugboatEng]

This indicates a guilty party has been found.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/hawaiian...s-lahaina-destruction-historic-maui-wildfires

A class action lawsuit will limit liability for the power company.

 

[3DDave]

Bankruptcy will limit liability. If their responsibility is true, it is another capitalist generated problem.

Apparently they have been generous with dividends. Shades of PG&E.

 

[TugboatEng]

No need for bankruptcy when you have class action. Simply coordinate an acceptable payout and protect yourself from future litigation. The class action assigns a cost so the corporation can plan around it. The lawyer gets 1/3, everybody affected gets pennies. That's not capitalism.

I was a member of a Wells Fargo class action. That one where they rearranged your deposits and withdrawals so that you would overdraft your account. My payout was less than a single overdraft fee.

With that said, power delivery is an essential service. Do we sue refineries because gasoline is flammable? The power company needs to maintain their lines but there will always be faults. We also need to be fire conscious with construction.

 

[3DDave]

It depends. The Camp Fire that swept through Paradise CA was caused because a hook had, over the last 40-50 years, worn completely through. The damage would have been visible from the ground to anyone sent to inspect the line, even a decade sooner. Another hazard is trees tall enough to reach power lines - also clearly visible and taking a decade or more to go from completely safe to potential hazard. Failing to maintain or inspect is 100% pure capitalism.

You would sue if a gasoline company left thousands of tanker trucks to rust away in the forest and was the primary fuel source for a fire from a spark too small to ignite a leaf.

I expect that the relatives of the 90+ dead will not settle for a couple of dollars. Like PG&E, the electric company has the potential of forced bankruptcy.

 

[TugboatEng]

The vast majority of the money is going to federal agencies. I don't think any person got a big payout after the Camp fire.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/com...tlement-over-california-wildfires-2022-09-29/

 

[3DDave]

That link was suits against the management, not the company. In addition "More than 48,800 fire victims have already received $4.91 billion in payments."

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https://www.norcalfirelawyers.com/camp-fire/payouts/

"PG&E filed for bankruptcy, saying that it faced approximately $30 billion in liability for the 2017 and 2018 fires."

As I wrote before, bankruptcy is the protection.

 

[cranky108]

I don't think the trees growing into power lines is a decades long issue.
From where I worked before, they had a tree cutting plan. One manager wanted to cut O&M costs and ordered a delay of one year. That delay created so many tree outages.

That said, my present company trims trees, but trees, outside of the right of way seem to get blown, or fall into the lines. So how do you make home owners trim there over grown trees?

But all that aside, I believe this might be a zone with many earth quacks, and because of high shipping costs. the materials used might be on the lighter side, like wood.

It is true that some electric companies are mismanaged, but is it different than other businesses? Or government?
Be careful who you point fingers at.

 

[Sym P. le]

Except in this scenario, the scale of rotten outcomes from mismanagement is off the charts.

 

[3DDave]

Almost always power companies and other utilities are granted monopoly status. They do not have any further direct competition, allowing them to raise rates to provide on-going maintenance. Instead many use that status to enrich the directors and stockholders. Few corporations get this status from local or regional government. I also fault public utility oversight boards that approve the rate increases.

Enron was the poster child, with parts of PG&E a close second.

All the overhead wires in my area shed all their insulation decades ago. There is no remediation plan. The same company nearly killed a family due to ignoring problems at the Taum Sauk reservior - it would have killed hundreds had it let go in summer.

As to owners - mail a notice that power will be disconnected unless they either allow a crew to deal with the hazard or they deal with it themselves.

 

[dik]

another possible problem...

"When flames swept through western Maui, engulfing the town of Lahaina, residents saw toxic fumes spewing into the air as burning homes, pipes and cars combusted, transforming rubber, metal and plastic into poisonous, particulate matter-filled smoke.

Retired mailman and Vietnam veteran Thomas Leonard heard a boom as a propane tank at a nearby home exploded, leaving a cloud that looked like “a gigantic mushroom” in its wake."

https://globalnews.ca/news/9894497/maui-wildfires-toxic-pollutants/

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[cranky108]

High rates are sometimes because of local taxes that governmental entities mandate on utility companies.
Also in my case, try to convince the city council to allow us to cut off power to residences who do not trim trees.

In the case of Enron, they were just lying.

Other REC, that started fires, were following Federal Guidelines.

"Almost always power companies and other utilities are granted monopoly status." This true and is on a state by state basis. This is because of the high cost of equipment, and having twice the equipment would not serve the customers well.

What companies have insulation on there distribution, or transmission lines? We don't. Why in the world would we put the lines thirty feet in the air, if they were insulated?

 

[3DDave]

The remains of the insulation on the wires that are most likely to contact trees and each other are still on the wires, little bits and pieces. It's that way on all the wires downstream of the local transformers. At my house I cut a section of branches to clear the wires. They put in a new pole and put the wires higher up, into the tree again. After sparking events they put a tie-back device to hold the wires apart. That crept down the line and no longer worked, so I cut down the tree.

Oh, the rates aren't "high." They are reasonable. But that is if the money is spent where the company claimed it would be. Instead of the claimed maintenance, it goes out the back.

If the city council won't help, sell the company to someone else who will be responsible for a mass-murdering fire. The concept that people have no influence and are entirely without obligation or responsibility is common.

Speaking of which - is it reasonable to energize a line with a line down on the street? Just power it back up without checking after the report of a line down? They did that too. Probably because they have spent no money on their reporting system. I imagine a room covered in post-it notes.

They do have money for sophisticated ad campaigns into their monopoly area as if we could switch. They want to use their sophisticated meters for minute-by-minute demand pricing to put off spending money on expanding or repairing generation equipment - see Texas power failure, charging thousands of dollars per day with demand pricing. This long-term reduction in margin will not be seen in a long-term rate reduction. But I bet it sees an increase in lobbying for a rate hike.

 

[waross]

As to owners - mail a notice that power will be disconnected unless they either allow a crew to deal with the hazard or they deal with it themselves.

I have received such letters more than once concerning rental properties.
No threat of disconnection. One instance was a tree threatening a distribution line.
As I recall, the letter pointed out my possible financial liability should my trees cause an incident.
In all cases I contracted with an appropriate contractor to trim or remove the trees.


--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[SwinnyGG]

It's only the "climate scientists" that claim otherwise. The same ones that seem to know the cause of a fire without knowing what started it. Do you trust that?

Here we go again.

No climate scientist has made that claim. The only quoted party so far that's remotely related to a 'climate scientist' has sad pretty clearly:

"Blaming this on weather and climate is misleading," said Clay Trauernicht, a University of Hawaii at Manoa professor and environmental management expert. "Hawai'i's fire problem is due to the vast areas of unmanaged, nonnative grasslands from decades of declining agriculture."

 

[waross]

In regards to Lahaina, did the power lines start the fire or did the fire bring down the lines?

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[SwinnyGG]

It was extremely windy on the islands due to tropical storm Greg, with lots of power lines down and other damage already.

I don't think a starting location for the fire is actually confirmed yet, but assuming it was started by a downed power line due the severe winds is plausible.

 

[TugboatEng]

Here we go again.

No climate scientist has made that claim. The only quoted party so far that's remotely related to a 'climate scientist' has sad pretty clearly:

Funny, why did Clay Trauernicht feel the need to make that statement if what you say were true?

 

[3DDave]

Because the not-a-scientist governor did say that climate change will lead too more events of similar scale and the Fox commentariat went berserk and claimed the governor said what the governor did not say.

"That’s what a fire hurricane is going to look like in the era of global warming," Green said.

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There are reports that water pressure also failed ahead of the fire going through the town. This is apparently due initially to low reservoir levels. Now those reservoirs are considered too polluted with toxic combustion products that a no-boil, do not consume order is in place. In addition low pressure can siphon toxic materials back through damaged pipes.

One contributor was (my guess on material) that these homes weren't built with copper plumbing; the description is that pipes melted in burning homes leading to uncontrolled water loss in the system and diverting water even more.

The west Maui water system uses electric pumps so they may have been lost as well.

This is also the Catch-22.

Shut off power and there is no water to fight a fire or anything else. Keep the power on and there is a fire risk.