Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii 40

[3DDave]

Another wild fire sweeping through a residential area - it leads me to wonder if exterior sprinkler systems, particularly for roofs, would be sufficient to slow the progress of such fires.

I noted a multi-story apartment or hotel that was generally intact, suffering some interior fire which the sprinkler system may have stopped. The roof was untouched simply from height and the exterior which appeared to be brick - likely the windows or their frames failed in the heat. It was surrounded by ash.

As they are on the ocean the supply of water suitable to the use is well available as long as power for pumps is available. Besides electric pumps, pumps directly driven by diesel and the possibility of adding fire boats pumping water to the system seems worth considering. It's along the ocean so additional salt water should be more acceptable than fire.

 

[TugboatEng]

Copper plumbing as installed in households is not considered fire resistant. Fire resistant plumbing uses brazed fittings, not soldered. Copper fittings can be brazed but commercial buildings use brass pipe with bronze socket braze fittings.

CPVC is starting to gain acceptance as a fire resistant pipe but it would certainly be a contributor to pollution if it did burn.

It will be curious to see the different environmental responses between the vinyl chloride fire in East Palestine vs the PVC fires in the wealthy vacation home.

 

[davefitz]

A fire resistant type of home design is possible, such as using a steel or tile roofing and the siding would likewise be steel or hardi-board. Grass huts or using wood shingle roofing is just asking for trouble, as is vinyl siding.

A mayorial command to shelter in place when applied to grass huts or vinyl sided buildings is , well, just plain stupid.

The IRC international residential code, used for designing single family homes, has useful requirements for minimizing the fire dangers inside the home and allowing escape routes and access for firemen, but it doesn't seem to address the home's exterior design requirements for minimizing fire damage from external threats. Perhaps an optional chapter to address that threat should be added.Such a change likely requires input from the insurance industry.

Failure of home's internal pipes , leading to loss of water header pressure, could be addresssed using a back pressure valve at the curb valve, but the retrofit cost is likely not justifiable.

Fires that destroyed all wooden structures in chicago, london, seattle, etc all led to rebuilding of those cities with brick buildings, and slate roofs if near a train track.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[cranky108]

Now it is being mandated that a excess flow valve be installed on gas systems at the pipe location, before the reducing valve. So why can't someone do that with water pipes?

Also, I was thinking, Hawaii is more than 75% renewable, which is known to use IBR's for the interface, which has a much lower fault current availability than a rotating generator. So maybe they also had low fault currents, which is why they could not detect a grounder wire. And maybe this is just speculation, as I have been looking issues to installing a microgrid with solar as a base.

Most cities that I have seen, use a fossil fuel generator for backup for there water pumps. So what happened here?

The choice of building materials, likely depends on cost (plus shipping), and availability, and the economic health of the community (what people can afford). That said, exactly how many high paying jobs existed in that community?

 

[1503-44]

"Climate studies tend to indicate an increase in precipitation with increasing temperatures."
Obviously increasing drying rates and degree go along with that. The water is coming from somewhere. And its obviously not happening in the same place.
Southern areas of EU are severely drying out while northern areas are getting extreme floods.
Is that "climate scientist" stuff, or common sense.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[cranky108]

Gee in most places one storm and you can exceed your yearly rain total. Seems to me that the whole drying trend is short term, maybe a few years at the most. Same with having a wet season.
Mostly just more variability than most people like.

 

[dik]

[quote="That’s what a fire hurricane is going to look like in the era of global warming," Green said.][/quote]

It's the first time I've heard that term.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[1503-44]

Cranky, Havent you been hoping it's a short term effect for like 15 years now.
Nobody likes 15% remaining in Spains southern reservoirs and properties outside the close in cities getting cut off the water service. 21 Andalucian towns have resorted to extreme measures. Critical eyes are being directed to Phoenix' oranges orchids and golf courses. Salt Lake is almost nothing. Rhine traffic is slowed down again. Glacers everywhere are disappearing. Atlantic Ocean here is 5°C higher. How many more years do you think it'll last?

Did, are you better with the "fire tornado" term? Hurricane is just wider scale.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[dik]

1503... a fire hurricane implies far greater destruction to a much larger area... I think it's fitting and may be a new feature of climate change.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

If we keep diverting funding away from infrastructure repair and land management and towards climate change projects these firestorms will certainly get more frequent and intense.

 

[1503-44]

On the other hand, after everything burns up, they will figure out that land magement and infrastructure development considering climate change effect is necessary. If you don't treat the cause of the sickness, you are left to treat the symptoms. Check the box you prefer.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[SWComposites]

Fixed the statement: If we keep diverting funding away from infrastructure repair and land management and towards corporate welfare and tax breaks for the rich these firestorms will certainly get more frequent and intense.

 

[TugboatEng]

I recently visited Iowa and was surprised to see much of the open land is mowed. Meanwhile, in my home state of California they are seeking to ban mowers of most types. Different approaches, I guess. I wonder which will be more effective at reducing the severity of fires?

 

[dik]

I heard California was using goats to assist...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Pinwards]

Iowa also has just over 1,000' of elevation difference from it's lowest to highest elevations. While California has almost 15,000' and a lot of forests and mountains. I don't think mowing it is any more feasible than Trump's suggestion to rake the forests.

#

 

[1503-44]

Grass stops wind erosion. A severe problem in the Midwest. National Soil Conservation Service has long had very sensitive regulations on prevention of wind erosion on FED land. Not sure if it requires mowing these days. Minimise fuel, but maintain coverage as a rule. Grass coverage in California is probably not anywhere near the extent of that in the prairie lands. I would guess banning lawn mowers is to discourage large expansive green grass water guzzling in urban areas in what is becoming a significant water supply burden in the south. Perhaps nothing to do with fire prevention at all.

Or maybe they just harvested the corn.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[3DDave]

The California mower ban is on gasoline powered mowers and leaf blowers, not mowing.

 

[1503-44]

That's good. Makes at least some sense now.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[3DDave]

It doesn't even stop the use of the mowers immediately, just their sale. I'm sure there will be imports of mowers purchased out of the state by lawn mowing companies; not sure how repairs and spare parts are handled. I expect at least a decade before the big squeeze comes.

 

[hokie66]

Iowa mowed? I think you saw recently harvested land. You know, grain and silage.

 

[SnTMan]

I understand its not just mowers, but all small engine power equipment. Like generators...


The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand