Alaska Airlines flight forced to make an emergency landing (Part II)... 26

[TugboatEng]

Going after bonuses isn't sufficiently damaging... Give them the bonus is they succeed but take away more than the bonus if they fail. This will make the world much more conservative.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

that's the thing they haven't succeeded in real life, but on paper they have.

They need to recover all the bonuses from the start of this fiasco.

4 billion it has cost Boeing in the 1st quarter this year.

 

[TugboatEng]

And the shareholders can afford that. This is why you need to go after the parties that can't. Someone, other than the shareholders, made the actual decision to look the other way or pencil whip paperwork. The shareholders didn't tell someone to do that. Someone in a lower management position did the deed for their own self-protection or advancement.

Remember, shareholders are usually completely disconnected from their investments and that's why we despise them so much. They make money off our decisions with little to no real input.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The financial types that have been driving the behaviour are the ones I am suggesting the bonuses should be recovered from and taken through a legal process.

In fact they should be licensed to be able to operated in safety critical industries. Not just a MBA and start making bonuses.

 

[TugboatEng]

Is it illegal for a shareholder to go to a project manager and ask them to reduce costs by whatever means necessary? No.

Is it illegal for a project manager to falsify records in order to reduce costs? Yes.

The problem with companies like Boeing is that they pay their engineers well enough that the engineers are willing to take that risk for fear of losing their high paying job.

 

[JohnRBaker]

So if you paid them less, they would be more careful...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[TugboatEng]

It's a double-edged sword. Need to pay highly enough to attract high quality engineers, but the high pay also attracts imposters.

See most green energy projects for examples. Most of these projects fail to pass even the most basic scrutiny yet engineers are more than happy to participate because it pays well.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Our oldest son works for a company which has a reputation for paying very high salaries to its best people, because the owner (the company, despite being one of the largest in the hospitality industry, is NOT a publicly-traded company) believes in keeping employees who contribute the most to success of the company and the best way to do that is to pay them so much money that they'll never feel like they have to go somewhere else to make more money. He admits that it sometimes locks you into a bad situation, like the crap that he had to take for years from his immediate boss. However, he retired at the end of last year and his new direct boss is much easier to work with, so he's glad that he stuck it out.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[zeusfaber]

John,
Would you mind my quoting that post in the Language/grammar skills forum as an example of one of my pet peeves ?
A.

 

[JohnRBaker]

In what context? That being said, if it helps you make a point and it's not done in a denigrating or demeaning manner, I guess it's OK. I'll be watching for how you use it.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[davidbeach]

I'm going to guess it has something to do with changing antecedents...

When one this sentence into the German to translate wanted, would one the fact exploit, that the word order and the punctuation already with the German conventions agree.

-- Douglas Hofstadter, Jan 1982

 

[JohnRBaker]

I think I see now what zeusfaber spotted, and if that's it, yea, I got a bit sloppy in how I was referring to different individuals.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[zeusfaber]

Post is up now. Let me know if you're not comfortable with it.

A.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Yep, that's what I thought you'd noticed ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[dik]

So you can pay them less and less, for more and more until pretty soon they will do everything for absolutely nothing...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[davidbeach]

Just don't let MBAs make decisions about anything important...

When one this sentence into the German to translate wanted, would one the fact exploit, that the word order and the punctuation already with the German conventions agree.

-- Douglas Hofstadter, Jan 1982

 

[TugboatEng]

Maybe, but saying no to MBAs is not how engineers get to higher paying positions.

Unless the MBA commanded an engineer to violate their ethical duties, any ethical violations are on the engineer.

I guess one could argue that MBA's are bullies? How do they have so much power over us?

 

[Brian Malone]

Don't forget to recognize often the MBAs also have engineering degrees. To cloak the malfeasance at Boeing/Spirit with a blanket statement of 'evil MBAs' or 'accountants' or 'bean-counters' is ignoring just having an engineering degree does not make one immune to the lure of financial gain or status or power. Certainly, engineers are often more analytical than average but the same skill/talent for engineering also allows for an understanding of possible areas for exploitation of confidence and safeguards.


]

 

[Brian Malone]

MBA programs for engineers are common - one example:

https://online.kettering.edu/news/mba-for-engineers

Any name stand out?

 

[Brian Malone]

Actually, I just found out Dennis Muilenburg does not have an MBA from Kettering even though they name-drop him in their pitch. Regardless, I stand by my assessment that being an engineer does not make one immune to making decisions based on finances that may be counter to the goals of good engineering.