Are drawings needed anymore? 1

[dotdash]

In the coming and existing CAD day and age of 3d models as the carrier of information - Do we need drawings anymore?
Are drawings a needed legal document?

 

[cksh]

I work in Automotive designing plastic parts. We model everything is 3D and create a 2d print for the toolmaker which is a controlled document. However, some toolmakers cannot use our 3D data to create the tooling and must go from our print (Horrible!). These prints take forever to create and check and that is without modeling draft into the part. Others can use the model data so our prints are very basic. The prints include only the dimensions we wish to be measured, or that are critical to the toolmaker when creating the molds etc.

 

[KENAT]

dotdash, design checkers do seem a dying breed, I and a couple here are desperately trying to fight a come back but it's a constant battle.

You are correct that many ‘view & markup’ packages aren’t really adequate yet for design checking. Also maybe it’s because I’m stuck in 2D but I often find it easier to review a design based on drawings than spinning a model around on my monitor and having to interrogate it to find dimensions.

The places that seem to make most use of MBD are ones that seem to have what might be called ‘integrated’ supply chains. In other words the OEM picks the CAD system and forces everyone in their supply change to use it. This is fine for the big boys, not so good for small & medium firms. Not only do you need compatible CAD systems (they don’t have to be the same but need to be able to share some kind of annotated format like .jt) but you need the configuration control discipline etc to go with it etc.

In my opinion drawings, or for complex ‘freeform’ type parts a combined drawing & model are going to be the way to go for many areas of industry for a long time yet, but I’ve been wrong before.

elecricpete, how young are you? I'm only 29 but am aware of electric erasers (my checker still has one he uses on his redlines), eraser shields (I have a mangled one somewhere) 'bendy rulers' (not sure the real name but they were the ones used to draw smooth lines when effectively 'joining the dots') plastic leds, scalpel (both for scratching ink off certain types of prints & for cutting sections out of linen drawings that had been amended too many times), linen drawing media, full E size prints, tracers...

 

[davefitz]

buildings and plants are used for 50+ years, but computer programs ( and storage media) have a half life of about 5 yrs. Not only do the programs become obsolete, but the companies that service the program also disappear . Certainly the engineers and programmers that are aware the program's limitations retire and take with them the root knowledge of the program's basis.

In the year 2057, maybe ACAD version 345 will be in use, and maybe it is backwardly compatible with ACAD v 12, but maybe not. ( maybe Rocky 345 will be showing in theatres as well).

 

[lz5pl]

buildings and plants are used for 50+ years, but computer programs ( and storage media) have a half life of about 5 yrs. Not only do the programs become obsolete, but the companies that service the program also disappear .
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davefitz, you hit the point! In the company I worked for last 15 years we changed from AutoCAD v.9 to 2002. We have projects stored on 5,25 inch diskettes, on 120 MB (Huge size!!!) strimmer cassetes, on CD's. How can one open now something stored somewhere on first two media types?
5,25 floppy drives are not more produced, strimmer cassette drive is saved somewhere in the storage, but it needs DOS drivers (now floppy disk with these drivers is missing) - so these archives can be considered lost. And this is situation inside the company!

Now I must evaluate and update a project where original design is made 10 years ago y another company using "Microstation" software. I have original files, but only in "Microstation" format. Only hardcopies help me to find what is installed in the control panels. And I have two options - either to find somebody who still uses Microstation and to ask him to convert files in .dxf, either totally redraw paper copies!

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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[KENAT]

buildings and plants are used for 50+ years, but computer programs ( and storage media) have a half life of about 5 yrs. Not only do the programs become obsolete, but the companies that service the program also disappear .

Isn't that why they came up with Iges format so that you submit copies of to the customer, then it's their problem to keep it on current media... ;-)

Really useful when your customer isn't the government I know.

 

[ewh]

"...half life of about 5 yrs."

Not any of the major players. I've been working with the same CAD system for 20 years so far, and they keep improving. Plus I can still modify a 20 year old file if I need to. Some CAD systems may be bought out and integrated with other products, but the base functionality will most often remain. It does take an investment to ensure that your files do not become obsolete, but it can and is done. If you decide to not make that investment, then yes, your data may become worthless.

 

[HgTX]

I think I'm killing more trees now than I did when everything was on paper. I print out the pages I want to look at because it is much easier to see it on paper, but then I'm encouraged to throw away the printouts (into the recycle bin, but still) when I'm done, to reduce clutter. Then I decide I need to look at them again, so I print some more...

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Heckler]

We do MDD's (minimal dimensioned drawings) with trusted venders and our internal manufacturing. Other than that sending out a native solid model exposes proprietary data.

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 3.0 & Pro/E 2001
XP Pro SP2.0 P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
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(In reference to David Beckham) "He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right." -- George Best

 

[davefitz]

as an example of obselescence, I see that in oil field service areas, displays of 3d underground deposit strength is displayed using 3d hollograms. If 3d bld., plant, and piping design migrates to 3d hollogram displays, it seems like the whole concept of planar dwgs will become obsolete.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Careful...

Do we need engineers anymore?

 

[davefitz]

davefikingpe:
nope. just healthcare workers and lawyers. 99% of the future economy right there.

 

[KENAT]

DaveVikingPE

Surely it's more "Do we need Draughtsmen (Draughtspersonages?)" any more.

Real engineers don't do drawings right;-)

 

[GregLocock]

We migrated to full 3d solid modelling a few years back, and so far as everyone but the draggers is concerned it is a much better system. Any computer can access the 3D models of any car line, and if we want to compare with a car made elsewhere around the globe it isn't that much work to bring it over, and superimpose them. Learning to drive the visualisation software takes a few hours.

This means we can sit around a tube and talk about the problems without asking the draughtie to interpret what is in front of us.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[0707]

in big field constructions for the moment no

 

[civilperson]

After 35 years in the engineering field, I have been asked to learn AutoCAD and Bentley MicroStation. The current ratio of technical designers to engineers is 3:11 and the the boss envisions 1:11 as a goal when all the engineers are proficient in CAD. The amount of learning required to go from AutoCAD lite to version 2000 is enormous. I will buy stock in the ozalid paper manufacturers for the future bluelines made from paper/linen originals, (which I am competent to produce).

 

[Grubbyky]

I can only imagine the kind of look I would get if I hand a flash drive to a contractor when they ask for plans. They aren't going to buy AutoCAD to read drawings. You can't easily scale off of a pdf unless you print it.

For civil work, paper is here to stay.

 

[ewh]

For mechanical work, NEVER scale the drawing.

 

[KENAT]

In theory, but when you've been waiting months for the product information you have to interface with and all you have is an assembly drawing you have no choice. Then again maybe that's a failing of project managment. The important thing is to scale from a given dimension both in X & Y.

It's definitely bad practice to scale from the drawing, at least in mechanical work, but NEVER say never.

I really don't see drawings going away completely anytime soon but I'll be interested to be proved wrong.

 

[lz5pl]

Some SciFi assumption - paper drawings may be ommited totally when some kind of "use-it-anywhere" projection technolgy will be invented. Probably some kind of hologram or like this. And of course the projector must be portable, low power consumption and to be possibile to make remarks back to the source file.
Too many requirements? But would somebody imagine just 20 years ago how powerfull will be a modern battery operated(!!!) laptop? Or 10 years ago that more than two billion people will have mobile phones?
We will see after another 20 years, if God allows us!

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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[PSE]

Certain types of information, schematics come to mind, do not lend themselves real well to a 3D representation. As such I do not see 2D or a drawing format going away any time soon. You may potentially view them on electronic paper but they will still be there.

Regards,