Boss lied 12

[UMRMST]

I just recently learned that my employer doubled billed a client. The client paid the bill and it was over $25,000. We discovered it after we had already deposited the check. My boss told me that the company could not pay it back because we simply do not have the money in our account at this time.

That was 18 months ago, the company just now told the client and cleared up the matter with them. It was a public project that they knew would be audited and were afraid the client would find out. I have lost all respect for my boss and he lied to client about when they discovered the error. I don’t want this to hurt my career or reputation but what do you do? Changing jobs is not an option since no one is hiring.

 

[UMRMST]

It sounds like lawyers instead of Engineers on here.
Invoice #1 sent Jan 2008 for $25,000 – paid by client.
Invoice #1 sent again in Jan 2008 for $25,000 – paid again by client
Feb. 2008 my company noticed what had happened. Over the next 12 months they billed an additional $60,000, all invoices paid by client. Total paid was $110,000 contract was only for $85,000.

6 months after the project was closed out the company approached the client and told them they just now discovered the error although it was actually discovered 18 months earlier.

Okay, is that clear enough?

To answer your question, I found out immediately when it was discussed in a meeting and that is when the company said they could not pay it back. Me and others did not agree with this decision and expressed our concerns but since we are employees and not the owner it was not our call. However, we all know it is not the correct thing to do especially when you continue to bill on the project. As to the question of not being able to pay, per the company we were having a record year so why couldn’t we pay? The question was asked but not answered.

 

[patprimmer]

Rapid growth even with good profit can create a temporary cash flow problem as costs to cover increased business comes in before the revenue from increased business.

When it is as cut and dried as your last post, why did you even need to ask here.

Unless there was an agreement you are not privy to or unless there is a getting even for past wrongs, the knowingly withholding the money was clearly unethical.

Regards
Pat
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[rowingengineer]

Make sure when your resign it is after a pay check.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

 

[TDAA]

Double bill may have been a mistake. I will give them that. Being found prior to additional billing, and continuing to bill? That I have a problem with.

They should have notified the client, and worked out how to come out even on the contract. At a minimum, they could have billed to 100% then said they found out they had over billed.

If the money is spent before the problem is realized, then there should be some latitude.

Let's say your company overpaid you and you did not realize it because your wife picked up the check and put it in the bank. You see there is finally enough down payment for that new car so you buy it. Now you see the check stub and the over payment. Do you sell the car to get money to pay them back, or work it out to have them hold back some over the next few checks?

 

[SNORGY]

I can't find it in me to agree with anything here other than paying the client back *immediately* after the mistake is found, within one business day, period.

If I owned the company, I would have even slapped $25K onto my personal Visa or Amex (or whatever) to get the client his money, and then negotiated with my own creditors how to repay my own debt.

Anything other than that is wrong. Sorry.

Turn it around...if you went out shopping for a TV or a car or even if you just paid a home heating bill, only to find that you had been overcharged by, say, double the value of the commodity, when would *you* want *your* money back? How many of you would say, "Oh, that's OK, I don't mind waiting a year or two."?

Perhaps I am just opinionated.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I'm with Snorgy...

Even if it was discussed with the client, they should get the money back. It wasn't yours to begin with, so give it back immediately. If you spent it already, your accounting has issues as this should have been caught the moment the check came in... if you received money and can't match it up with a P.O., do you just deposit it and say "Meh, someone must owe me"? Of course not.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[MikeHalloran]

The discussion seems to have drifted a bit.

No one disagrees that the owner or principal of the business >should< rectify any irregularities immediately.

The question is, when the owner/principal chooses to not do so, and to live on the float,,,,,

what, then, is the wage slave employee to do?




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[MacGyverS2000]

In an ideal world? Approach the boss with the issue and document it. If the boss is unwilling to do anything, do the same with the client. No one was in any immediate danger, so waiting 30 days or so to see if the problem was rectified is appropriate. We all have a moral obligation to see wrongs righted. Of course, we don't live in an ideal world, and there's a good chance this will put you at the head of the "people to let go during the next recession" list.

In the real world, unless there is the possibility of physical harm, the OP should mind his own bees wax. If a (client's) business folds because they cannot keep a good handle on their accounting practices (such as double-paying), that's survival of the fittest. If a (worker's) company folds because it routinely over-bills clients and people wise up, same survival rules. If it's a case of fleecing the government or stockholders (who, unfortunately, either do NOT have good accounting practices or the accounting is obfuscated from the public eye, and therefore more than just the company is hurt financially), the wage-earner should follow the same rules as in the ideal world situation and hope the whistle-blower status applies to him.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Bobber1]

I realize this is a cash flow thing. This doesn't sound like a good way to run a business, on other people's money.

Under capitalism, weak companies will fail in the end. Keep a fresh resume at least.

 

[jmw]

The "other people's money" factor is how Tescos supermakets have risen to be a power in the market. BY late paying bills they were able to build a new supermarket every week.
Of course, in their situation it wasn't double billing a client but taking advantage of suppliers for whom it was "do business with us on our terms or ..... tough." I tink the term that actually entered the language is the "Other people's capital factor".
It was a lot cheaper than borrowing from the bank.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[cudaracer]

They probably should have added the intrest to the $25,000 that was made over the 18 months when they fixed the overpayment....

 

[marks1080]

If this was for a public project than it will get audited eventually. Your boss and company will get hammerd when that happens. No doubt they will make the local news. It could possibly become a political issue if this happens during election time. The company will lose credibility and you will have to find a new job. I think you did your due dilligence. It is not your responisbility beyond that. Accounts also have a code of ethics they are to follow as well. You should start looking for other jobs.

 

[chris9]

Your boss may have took his time to pay back the overpayment but how many of his customers pay his invoices on time? My guess is less than a third. For many companies it takes over 3 months to get paid but they still need to pay wages and other overheads. In fact, cash flow is one the most common reasons why engineering companies go bust.

Chris

http://www.value-design-consulting.co.uk

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

PatPrimmer ... you recently posted that (paraphrasing) "ethics cannot be taught to those who don't have them, and those that have them don't need to be taught".

Some of the responses in this post prove your point.

 

[beej67]

This thread sparks a very interesting question to me, that not very many people have hit on.

Down on Wall Street the answer would be "keep the money until the client finds out." Largely because bankers don't really have a code of professional ethics they're following like engineers, doctors, etc. do. This all became very apparent towards the end of 2008, when our profession was wrecked by incongruities in their profession, and they got a government bailout for it while we got a pink slip.

So here's the interesting question .. do the codes of professional engineering ethics that we adhere to also apply to the financial aspects of the engineering business? And if so, are we holding ourselves to a higher standard than our clients (developers) or our financiers (banks) hold themselves to?

I don't know the answers, but I'm interested to hear some responses.

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[rowingengineer]

beej67,
Might be worth a new thread.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[beej67]

Heh, that might make me look like an instigator.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[SNORGY]

It doesn't matter what the topic is.

Ethics are ethics.

Money - the root of all evils, as they say - is, in my mind, the principal reason why "ethics" has a definition in business.

If we indeed do hold ourselves to a higher standard, my vote would be to continue to do so. Why lower ourselves and attempt to rationalize it by resigning ourselves to the attitude in which we are satisfied by saying, "Well, we're no more crooked than any of the other professions, so it's all good."?

The neck-tie that I wear is not merely for the purpose of preventing the prepuce from sliding over my head, as might be the case with some others in other professions.


Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[apsix]

Actually the correct quote is;
The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

 

[IRstuff]

That depends on who you're quoting. If you're quoting "they" then the original quote is correct, since "they" all misquote the Bible. ;-)

As for the Bible quote, that depends on which Bible you choose to quote:

http://bible.cc/1_timothy/6-10.htm

TTFN

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