Chrysler Engineering reputation 4

[thruthefence]

Years ago part of Chrysler's marketing, was it's engineering expertise. Is it deserved, either in the 1950's, or today? I had an uncle, would only buy THEIR products, and gushed about "Superior Engineering" at every family gathering. Can someone point to specific advances that would give them this cache'. Or, is there more "sizzle" then "steak" ? Mass produced the "hemi" engine, pretty good automatic transmission; anymore?? Seems like they had an electronic fuel injection system, predating Bosch, in the early '50's?

 

[Tmoose]

I had a very senior 6 cylinder Fairmont wagon for a few years. Although the infamous aluminum steering rack died right on schedule, I liked it's handling, size and layout a lot. Not that Hank deuce planned it, but Shod with a serendipidous set of lowly all-seasons it was even startlingly good in snow. An up-to-date version would make more sense to me, for me, than any SUV.

Just last month A cantankerous Chevy advocate acknowledged that by his eyewitness recollective account Mopar musclecars did not shuck their drivetrains nearly as often as Chevys under serious abuse.

To my eye they have had a few styling triumphs too.

Manufacturing engineering is engineering too.
Genius designs poorly assembled make few friends.

Speaking of poorly assembled, Justified or not, Ever know "labor" to intentionally slow things way down, or even foul things up intentionally?

 

[MikeHalloran]

>>>Ever know "labor" to intentionally slow things way down, or even foul things up intentionally? <<<

Yes, but there's always a backstory.

<tangent>, likely boring to most of you

The story:

Setting: An axle plant, where axles with cast center sections are/were assembled on a slowly moving conveyor with the pinion pointing down, and the center section gasket and cover put on last.

Someone on the line put in a formal suggestion that we cover the center sections while the line was shut down at night, to avoid contamination.

As the new, green, assistant manufacturing process engineer in training for that line, I had to provide a written response to the suggestion.

I conducted an investigation. That part of the factory was then new, the ceiling was in good shape, and the place was kept at least as clean as our offices. I asked the people in charge of warranty records; we weren't having a problem with contamination of any kind.

So I wrote a polite response, declining to implement the suggestion. It was typed up (long time ago), reviewed, and sent out in snail mail.


A couple of days later, there was a panic in the morning because many of the axles under construction had been contaminated with floor sweepings, machining chips, dirt, and assorted junk, while the line was down overnight. No one was mystified.

We knew exactly who should have been fired, but it was a union shop. Lacking irrefutable evidence, and maybe even if we had had it, we couldn't do a damn thing about it.


The backstory:

There was a substantial financial incentive to at least submit suggestions. The Company rewarded implemented suggestions with something like one percent of the first year's savings, in cash. That doesn't sound like much, but because of the production volume, a savings of a penny per car would net you enough of a reward to buy yourself one of those cars, brand new. It had happened.

One of the production managers got his ne'er-do-well son a summer job there, and sort of pushed through a suggestion on the kid's behalf. It was not a bad idea. It probably didn't save nearly as much money as was asserted, but it did help. It may even have actually been the kid's idea, but I didn't think he was quite that bright.

What he was, was insufferable.

The kid bought a new car with his money, a flashy one, and drove it proudly, and bragged about how he got it, to anyone who would listen, and to all who were tired of hearing about how smart he thought he was.

True, the Company had actually rewarded actual valuable suggestions over the years, but not that many, and none were as technically trivial as The Kid's. All two thousand people at that plant, except his Dad, hated or at least resented that brat.



Of course, I didn't know the backstory when I catalyzed the events in the frontstory. It would have been cheaper to give a token reward, and let them cover the axles until they got tired of doing it... just like the old timers in my office had advised me to do.


Hey, I knew everything, and they were just ... old. Now I'm old, and try real hard to give good advice, just like they did, to about the same effect.


Because of that experience, for a while I thought that all union shops were run like, and necessarily had the emotional atmosphere and petty politics of, high school, or maybe middle school. Since then, I've found a few union shops where the employees were treated like, and behaved like, adults. I'm told that factory's culture changed about ten years after I left.

If I learn just a little bit more, I'll know absolutely nothing.

</tangent>

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[patdaly]

I have to say I am probably still alive because of Chrysler engineers. My 1967 GTX folded at exactly the points the engineers intended when it hit that tree at 50. Folded up even the trunk floor, took enough of the energy away so I only ended up with a twisted spine and a crushed cheekbone.
I don't know if it was by design or accident that the steering wheel was slightly right of what the typical GM and Ford cars were of the time, and that gave me room to not impale the wheel.

I gotta say though, my current experiences with Chrysler electrical stuff leaves me shuddering.

 

[izzmus]

Chryslers, over the years, have had many technical innovations, and decent designs. (I am a firm fan of the torsion bar front ends they had: good geometry and minimal unsprung weight for an excellent ride)

Unfortunately, they were usually bean-countered to death, so they were never as great as they COULD have been.

 

[turbocohen]

Some of the finest engineers I had the privelege of working with work(ed) at Chrysler. Instead of subcontracting our the tough stuff, they do more with less $ than their competitors and before Daimler robbed them blind they had billions in the bank and enviable profitability per employee was only 2nd to toyota.
In the field of alternative energy they had several in house pioneers who deserve more credit for doing more with less than they got at the time.

 

[patprimmer]

An engineer does not need to design something spectacular to be a good engineer.
He needs to design most fit or purpose best using the available resources. A crappy little car like a Gogomobile can be the result of good engineering if a Gogomobile iswhat is required.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[SomptingGuy]

Nobody has really mentioned it yet, but the automotive engineers in MI, USA tend to hop around "The Big Three". This probably has good long term effects for both the OEMs and the employees, but it does make a single OEM's "reputation" a bit questionable and transient.

- Steve

 

[Rob45]

I have a perspective different from some, having worked at Chrysler when Engineering was in Highland Park, and when the Chrysler Institute still offered a graduate degree in Automotive Engineering.
25% of the Institute graduates immediately left for Ford or GM...
I wasn't too impressed with MoPar quality even while I worked there, and nothing I've seen since has inclined me to believe they're other than a third-rate outfit.

When I worked in Light Trucks at Ford, we never even tested Dodge trucks: we didn't consider them to be "competition" as the Chevrolet trucks were.

I also worked for an auto supplier company for some years, and frequently met with Chrysler car engineers: echoing what Mint Julep said, I often found it difficult to discuss technical topics with them - they just weren't equipped for it.
Sure, there are exceptions, and the '60s era cars at least had bullet-proof transmissions, but the cars and trucks they build today are sub-standard.

 

[turbocohen]

Rob, My 94 ram pickup I sold to a friend has over 300,000 miles on the original powertrain and has been the most reliable vehicle I ever bought. Imperfect yes but damn reliable and inexpensive to maintain. Pulling my 2003 chevy 6.0 to overhaul due to leaks everywhere that appeared when the cam had to be replaced at 50K. I wish my ford excursion were as reliable, I liked its handling the best with a loaded trailer but after 3 tows to the dealer in the first year, one from 400 miles away.. Also had good luck with a Toyota under warranty but then admittedly i abuse everything I drive.
I also worked for an OEM I worked with some good ones from every oem.

 

[Rob45]

turbo, there's no doubt Chrysler has made a few good vehicles here and there, and there are no doubt good engineers at Chrysler - here and there - but on average, Chrysler is a third-rate outfit, with at best third-rate capabilities.
And they, not Ford, are lined up with their hands out in Wahsington...

 

[turbocohen]

Thrid rate capabilities? Rob, which Chrysler have you been visiting?

Bob Eaton raped the place and sold them down river to Daimler. Daimler management bought a good company and put some good people out and promoted others as they saw fit. There was no merger of equals. Plenty of good engieers left or were thrown on their rears.. Not defending management but I will defend a lot of their engineers. Lots of them move around to or from other oem's. A lot of the work is also done by their vendors who also move around. This thread has some comments that seem a bit myopic and insulting. I know people from about 1/2 of the worlds automakers and they all have some wineers and losers. All of them and Chrysler is no exception.

Honda has a great reputation but my 1982 civic had rusting a pillars when it was 1 year old. By 3 years they were both rusting through. Had a 01 toyota sequoia.. now that was a great machine but would intermittently turn off the a/c. Dealer never fixed it and Toyota would not pay for the problem.. a partially melted wire harness pinched behind the dash.. Not ripping on their engineers but any brand has mfg issues but most of them are pretty good overall nowadays.

 

[dashrr]

Rob,

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I'd take a Dodge over a Ford Truck any day. Working for an automotive supplier, I've had the opportunity to test both vehicles and interface with both Ford and Chrysler chassis engineers. Quite frankly, I'm more impressed with the talent and resourcefulness at the Chrysler group. Also, despite what you may think, the Ford engineers are very interested in the Dodge Truck product and do in fact have them in their vehicle fleets for benchmarking purposes. The '09/'10 LD and HD Ram's are terrific! Have you driven a Ford lately? Instead of speaking in general terms why don't you point to some specifics to support your opinion?

As for Ford not needing government assistance, this is merely due to them mortgaging everything they owned when credit was more available. I don't even think they own the pencils they write with at this point! We'll see how they do when their 11 billion in loans become due next year.

 

[Cholio]

Well, I am working at Chrysler now, and let me tell you, this is a completely new place now, that we went through the bankruptcy. The career paper pusher managers were asked to leave, and the engineers who didn't belong there were happy to take buyouts. The only guys who are left are those who are gearheads and who are dedicated to their craft. It's a much more pleasant place to work now too. Fewer people, more work, but we now work with better people, those who really care about what they do.

The new Dodge trucks are pretty good. You can give me some thanks for the ride and handling. If you look at the recent truck sales, despite the overall downturn in the the truck marker, the Dodge Ram trucks are doing better than anyone else in the industry:

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08/july-2009-top-10-truck-sales.html

You guys forgot to give Chrysler a credit for the Minivan and the Jeep.

The evil Germans ransacked the company before they left. Then the Cerberus dogs came and munched on the leftovers. The new Fiat guys seem to be much better, letting us run the regular business the best way we know now to. If the general economy picks up we will fair okay, and will keep making our current products better and bringing in some new ones.

 

[turbocohen]

COrnholio, your timing may prove quite good. I believe Xler will emerge a healthy and lean competitor in the coming decade. As harsh a critic as I am of Nardelli due to his culture kiling actions at Home Depot I think he made some good moved sending dead wood out the door this time.

IMO, Fiat married up and the venture will improve them. Fiat's were the worlds worst crap decades ago but they made massive improvements in the last decade. Most Americans don't travcel in automotive circles so they find out much later that you will.

Regards, Turbo Cohen

 

[danteeqs]

I own several early 1960's Chrysler automobiles. Several years ago, not long after buying my first one, a 1963 Imperial, I was adjusting the windshield wiper arm. I've had many old cars in the past and this simple task can turn into a nightmare because the splined shaft is usually a cast zinc/white metal and they can corrode and expand making removal difficult and/or impossible. When I went to remove the retaining nut on the Imperial's wiper arm the nut would not come out all the way. Instead, as I kept turning, it began to act as a built in puller because the nut was captive in the arm. The arm came off with ease. I also saw that the splined shaft was tapered which facilitated the successful removal process. From an engineering standpoint this simple detail left a positive impression on me from that point on.

 

[danteeqs]

Oh, I almost forgot.... Imperial's motto in 1963... America's Most Carefully Built Automobile.

 

[turbocohen]

Wasn't the imperial the only car banned from smashup derby's? They were so damn brute strong solid they would always win.

 

[markgoldberg]

What I remember, going back to my days in high school, interest in drag racing, and general interest in cars which led me to study ME in college .....

Most of us considered it the macho thing to drive and own stickshift cars, but the Chrysler Torqueflite automatic trans was considered right up there, and ahead of anything from Ford or GM. It was used heavily in Chrysler-based competition drag machines. The Chrysler "Ramcharger" manifold was also well known in the competition set, with both wedge chamber and the second-gen hemi engine in the late 60's. Their earlier hemi came out in 1953 - my dad had one - and it was known for being one of the most powerful V8s of its type then, and had lots more growth room than other wedge engines for dragging.

I can't tell you exactly what happened over the years, except that Chrysler and the others got out of sync with the changes in the market and had a hard time shifting to new buying paradigms.

I like the Viper, but even the first one out lacked roll-up side windows, a feature the little Mazda Miata has never been without. Eventually Chrysler changed the design. Today, strictly from a gut level, I feel that most of their cars are still out of sync with the marketplace and that they lack the agility to fully recover.

 

[GregLocock]

Maybe designing parts that were ideal for drag racing is not what production car companies needed to be doing then, or even now?

Of course that is a statement of the obvious. There are plenty of amateurs who have designed succesful racing cars, not many have designed succesful production cars in the last 30 years.




Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[evelrod]

Just my observation....
Many (if not most)of the better engineers are not particularly "brand loyal", but rather $$$$$$ oriented. I know of several engineers that have worked for ALL the Big Three and are now in second or third tier companies. Pretty much like the car salesmen in many respects. They usually praise the good points of their current employer...Unless you are independently wealthy and don't really need the job!

Just call me Mr. Cynic ...

Rod