Did not receive the raise i wanted, now what? 75

[MechEng7777]

Hi All, i've been working as an MEP engineer in NYC for 2 years now. Its my first position related to my career after graduating with a BS. I very recently received my end of the year review and received nothing but praise, my boss thinks i am progressing very well and becoming very independent. But to my surprise, after all that i was presented with just a 4% raise and a 4% bonus. I am fine with the bonus i received but i feel the raise is kind of offensive. I will be going into my 3rd year now and my first raise was more than this. My question is, what should i do? Should i sit my boss down and express why i feel i deserve a better raise and how i can do better for next year? Apply to other jobs and get another offer first? Or should i just continue working hard here and see what happens next year? Its a small private company (~80 heads) so promotions are rare. Also, i have my FE and expect to take my PE in 2 more years.

 

[dvd]

????!? as opposed to the ethics of people in exempt positions, people who don't work, people with blue eyes, etc.?

 

[moltenmetal]

Do be careful to do the math correctly- that's an increase of 6-10% of your STARTING SALARY per year, not 10% of your CURRENT salary each and every year! Plus inflation of course.

 

[msquared48]

What's a raise?
What's sick leave?
What's vacation?
What's medical and dental coverage?
What's a bonus?
What's a 401K?
What's time and a half?

Some of us should be thankful for what we do have, not gripe about what we do not, especially this time of the year.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[ornerynorsk]

Good on ya, Mike! The self-employed miss out on so much . . . or is it the other way around?!?!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[StrykerTECH]

Reading through all these responses, and comments, I find it quite comical.

Responses range from "Be happy you have a job" - "grow the hell up" to "lie about it, do whatever you can to get a raise"

When I here this it makes me think back to my grandfathers career advice when I was very young and just out of college.

He said, "As an engineering just starting out, your primary goal is to acquire knowledge and learn a marketable skillset that can provide tremendous amounts of value to a broad range of organizations" This will in turn provide you with tremendous levels of compensation down the line. Why? because you provide a tremendous amount of value to an organization. Acquire knowledge and your pay will take care of itself. Be mindful of the market to know what skills are in demand and what opportunities are available, then tailor your skills to match the opportunities you find interesting. It isn't personal it is business, don't be afraid to leave a job to move to another. However, don't just complain about your situation, change it.

Wise words. . . . with that being said, I would never change jobs solely based on money. I am a consultant, I own my own business, I recently had my best engineer leave my organization because he wanted to be around his family more. He was paid very handsomely well above market value. If you always chase money, you will never be happy. As an engineer chase the knowledge, happiness will follow.

StrykerTECH Engineering Staff

http://www.stryker-tech.com/

 

[moon161]

Best answer so far. ^

 

[moltenmetal]

Well said Stryker! Problems don't fix themselves. And it is business, not personal. Provide value and know what that value is, in dollar terms. While it is true that chasing money will likely not make you happy, I find that it's very difficult for most people to separate how they're compensated (relative to their expectations) from how they feel about themselves. In business terms, what you're paid is how you are "valued". Putting up with poor compensation as inevitable and just b*tching about it is a recipie for unhappiness- and for a continued slide in the compensation for all engineers.

 

[dvd]

Don't be complacent, don't base career decisions on where the money is today.

 

[a2mfk]

<I apologize for being so verbose.>

One of the best reads I have had this year online on any subject, thanks to everyone. I love the range of feelings and advice also, I think it is reflective of different age ranges, but also of different life goals and experiences. What is odd is that I agree with so many opinions, even those that seem contradictory. I definitely felt like this poster did earlier in my career, right or wrong...

At least in the USA, and probably true in most first world countries, some people get obsessed with the Joneses and chasing the dollar. I am currently in my highest paid position by a large percentage, and am compensated well above market value. I was very fortunate to find this opportunity soon after I had to shutter my own consulting business due to the economic crash. However, I really do not like the work- but I do like my coworkers, my schedule, flexibility of my bosses, and some other aspects of the job. It has allowed me to catch up on my 401k a LOT, and put my family in a better overall financial position. However, even if this position could last forever, I cannot keep doing this forever. I don't really like living where do (relocated for the job), and the work has become a grind. I have enjoyed other jobs much more for less pay than my current one, but I wasn't in as good of an overall financial situation. There are tradeoffs to most things in life.

I think engineers for some reason come into this career-game hardwired to WANT to really enjoy what we do, and compensation to us may seem secondary. And when we do not enjoy what we do, it really bothers us. I happen to have several friends who are very well-compensated attorneys, and almost none of them like what they do, and a couple of them have admitted hating it. The extra Porsche in the garage only buys so much extra happiness I guess (literally 2 of them have an extra Porsche in their garage).

Specifically to you being a young engineer, I think it is wise to stay put for a minimum of 3+ years out of college as others have said. Think of your career like a 40 year contract, and it is back-end loaded. You are in the minor leagues now, and you are getting better every day, and getting experience, and you will get a better contract down the road. Being a good engineer is not just about intelligence and ability, or putting in overtime, but a huge chunk of it is EXPERIENCE, and it is invaluable. Keep building your resume, and honing your skills.

HOWEVER, this is a capitalist society, and like it or not, we are all commodities. Do not compare your salary to other industries or occupations, that is a fool's errand and will only frustrate you. If I could have been born with an arm that can throw a ball 100mph I would not be on this damn message board right now. Also, you WANT your bosses to be rich!! That means they know what they are doing and you are working for smart, successful people! What is the alternative? A dumb and poor boss? Poorly run company? How would that work out for your making more money? This may be the one of the most irritating remarks many people make when they grumble about their current state of employment (I am not aiming at you), though I get it is a pretty normal emotional reaction, you have to be more analytical (engineer brain).

BUT, you could compare yourself to peers in your field with your experience level in your locality, which is likely what your company is doing if they want to retain employees and also not overpay them (market analysis). Can you evaluate your own competence fairly and compare that with peers in your discipline? It is not just about years on the job and hours per week worked, though that does count for something. How much skill, knowledge, and experience do you have compared to similar engineers in NYC? Do you get projects done on time, under budget, with minimal mistakes? How are your people and client skills? All these things may be part of what your boss is considering.

You may find most peers are within +/- 5% of your total compensation (include time off, medical/dental, bonus, etc.). Now- put value on your mentors, coworkers, and the overall type of work you do and your experience. This is very difficult, but try to put a value on all of that. Remember this is an investment in your future, like a bond that will mature in 10+ years. If you have a couple of go-to mentors and you are really learning fast under their wing, put a lot of value on that! You may find even if you are being paid a little under market, the experience you are getting is above market value. This will get you paid more down the road than lesser-valuable experience would.

So, looks like I am about to turn 40 and now I think a lot like the rest of the "old guys/gals" on this board. Oh well, getting old ain't so bad... I would stay put for at least another year or so, even until you get your PE, especially if you are getting good experience on quality projects, and they are giving you progressive responsibility. Don't compare yourself with the Joneses, especially in other occupations. However, do the analysis in my above paragraph if you think you are being grossly underpaid. You can always interview somewhere, get an actual offer, and then go to your boss and CAREFULLY have a discussion about YOUR market value. "I really enjoy working here and love the experience I am getting, but I must also consider my market value and what is best for my family. Is there anything that we can do?" If your boss balks, you have a backup plan.

PS
At a minimum put away what your employer matches in your 401k (usually 3% or more). If not, you are passing up free money. Also, every dollar you put in your 401k is a dollar that does not get taxed (yes, you will pay tax eventually), so it is like making 15%+ interest off the top. Save until it hurts. Nobody gets to 50 or 60 and says, "Wow, I saved way too much, that was so stupid!" You are an engineer, so you understand numbers- compound interest is a powerful tool. Use it to your advantage early in your career.

 

[tbuelna]

Just read the part about the starting salary of $50K. This is low for any entry level engineering position, and even more so for one in the NYC area. I work in aerospace, and the typical engineering new hire right out of school can easily command a salary 50% higher than that.

Over the past few years, the market for engineering jobs has been quite good. So there seems to be no reason to accept an engineering job that offered such a relatively low starting salary.

 

[ThomasH]

A interesting thread with some sound advice.

As a movie fan I thought one comment was particularly interesting. Referring to Gordon Gekko claiming that "Greed is Good". He said that, but that is not all he said. He actually said that greed for life, money, love and knowledge is good.

If your primary drive in life is money and your selected field is engineering there is an obvious risk for disappointment. But if greed for knowledge is what drives you than you will hopefully have a satisfying career.

The OP has worked for two years. By my standards that is a beginner in engineering and we have all been there. The difference between two and seven years in terms of experience is often huge. Perhaps you don't see it today but you will in a few years. I don't know much about salaries in the US but perhaps you started to low. If so, I would advice to give it a few years and see what happens. If you continue to progress well and keep your boss happy the salary situation might solve itself.

Good Luck

Thomas

 

[mihmb]

Be patient. What you are experiencing is not the exception, but the norm. I have two examples for you.

Myself, I graduated in 2006. 1st year raise = 4.5%, 2nd year raise = 9 % (I was told it was because I did such a great job that year, but later came to find out it was cause they hired someone fresh out of college and had to give me that much just to match what they offered him). 3rd year raise = 8%. 4th year raise = 4 %. The consulting firm I worked for had a matix and ranked all employees. I was ranked #1 for years 1-3 and #2 for year 4 in a firm of about 50 engineers. I left just before taking my PE, and passing my PE would have got me another 3% raise. But I left and became a structural engineer in a different industry (pay at new job 30% higher than when I left consulting firm).

My good friend from college also graduated in 2006. Got 3-4% raises every year (nothing for passing PE). Also a top performer at a different consulting firm. Got promoted and received a 12% raise just within the last couple months . This promotion that he received is very rare at his firm, and basically if he does well he will be given the option to become an owner of the company within the next 3 years. This will likely double his salary within a few years of being an owner.

You see, the people who own consulting firms have worked very hard to get where they are at. They are responsible for managing a business that provides good jobs (believe it or not, you have a good job) for many many people. They need to be sure that if they have a bad year or two or three, that does not close doors (they will just have to stop buying 10k tables and putting additions on their houses). If owners where so kind to reduce what they take in, and pay everyone much higher of a salary, well then on a bad year they would have to tell everyone that they have to take a pay cut. This would make people madder than the boss buying a 10k table. Be glad that they can spend money like this; consider it job security to know they are running a good business.

 

[brandonbw]

That $10k table is most likely a good investment. I worked at a company that had put some really nice stuff in their main conference room. This was to make the company appear to be doing well. Which they were at the time. The BMW's might be to also look better while driving to a job site or meeting with clients outside of the office. There are some reasons to look a little more polished when being the owner of a business. And like the above comments say these guys worked hard to create a business that can employee people during a pretty bad economy for engineers. Work hard, learning as much as you possibly can, and see where you are at around year #4. You want to be at the point that you are handing out work too.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

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http://bwstructuralengineer.com

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http://bwcivilengineer.com

 

[TomDOT]

If I were making stupidly overpriced lawyer money, yet discovered I hated the job - there would be no way I would buy a Porsche, let alone an "extra" one.

I would live modestly, stash away as much cash as I could (401(k) and then just investments) - and get the hell out by retiring very early or jumping to a different career.

 

[a2mfk]

Tom- Just to clarify, I meant "extra" in that the Porsche is not their daily car . But exactly what you said is what one of my friend's is trying to do, retire by 50 in a less expensive country (Costa Rica), that offers a lot of lifestyle things he enjoys like surfing, mountain biking, general outdoor activities. I hope to join him in due time.

Working towards a specific financial or professional goal like that can also get you through some times in a job you do not really enjoy, like getting good experience towards your PE, or being able to save a lot more money so maybe you can take a lesser paid but more fulfilling job in the future (part of my current plan).

Good luck to the OP, wish I had this kind of input and advice at that stage in my career.

 

[bridgebuster]

Btai88 - don't complain. I work for a big company in NYC. I know we don't work for the same employer: Bonus? - what's a bonus?
The engineers in my department at your level got 3 to 4%. Senior people got 1.5%; after all we make too much money.

 

[cry22]

Wow, lots of stars there strykeTECH, lot of agreements.

I notice that you OWN your business, understand you did not hang around your former employers, you were not content with an employee's salary, you had to change that. While your dad's opinion was valid back in the days when people took care of their employees as family, it is no longer the case.
See nowadays - Promoting yourself is not a selfish thing.

I think you missed the point in the OP. Would like to see what advice do you have as an employer for a hard working kid underpaid in NYC instead, i.e what he should actually do to change the salary situation that he is obviously not happy with.

 

[cvg]

how does anybody on this forum know if stryketech was "not content with an employee's salary"? perhaps he wanted to be his own boss instead.

and it seems to be a jaded position to take regarding companies not taking care of their employees. the good ones do and the bad ones don't. and in this economy, it is difficult for a lot of companies to keep the doors open at all since commercial, residential and public works business is still sluggish in most areas.

as far as promoting one's self, go easy on that one. It is selfish and it occasionally successful. But, I can spot a self promoting fool a mile away and do not highly regard that personality trait.

 

[IRstuff]

If you do good works and are visible then self-promoting is unnecessary, for the most part. By visible, I don't necessarily mean holding up a sign that says, "Pick me;" you can simply work your presentation skills by volunteering to do presentations and practice on your own. Eventually, people will ask to present your own work, rather than have their usual skilled presenter do it for you.

We've got lots of people that are smart, and are valuable, but rarely get recognized for their contributions because they present poorly.

TTFN
faq731-376

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[CivilEngineer401]

In 2006 I was in the same situation. I worked in Long Island and made 45k with 3 years experience. We were still in the "glorious housing boom" and I was getting 2-3% raises a year. I talked to all of my friends from college and all of them were making more. Even the one who graduated with a degree in liberal arts.

Then one day I noticed that my boss, with his 15 years experience and a PE was only making 70k. With the cost of a "starter" home in Long Island around 350k, I realized that I could never own a home. What did I do? I moved to Pennsylvania.

What I learned is that cost of living for an area and wages for a particular occupation are two completely different things. Everyone thinks they are but they are not. The cost of living in Pennsylvania is probably half and I actually got paid a more (50k). If I worked in NYC in banking and moved to another state I'm sure I would have taken a huge pay cut.

On second thought, I do have a brother-in-law who works in banking. He just sold his house to move to Texas. He will be getting paid exactly the same as he did in NYC and will have a substantially lower cost of living.