Eating our own or more disgustingly known as cannibalism 18

[lacajun]

Years ago I noted a lot of contention between various engineers here. Since I've not participated here in 2-3 years, it is interesting to see that contention still exists. In essence, we eat our own.

We do not know how to be gracious to others. We seem to lack insight into a fundamental in life, i.e., we're all on different courses.

Younger engineers resent older engineers. Older engineers resent younger engineers. Non-degreed engineers resent degreed engineers. Degreed engineers resent PEs. Gifted engineers resent engineers that cannot make calculations or PEs that cannot make calculations. We tear each other apart and leave nothing to salvage from the exchange but hurt feelings, more resentment, more anger, and ultimately more damage to the profession of engineering.

We don't stick together. We eat each other alive.

Why can we not consider the many courses others traverse? Whether they tell us or not, can we not consider that their life has been different? Can we not consider that each decade of life has its own flavor? Can we not forbear our differences? Can we respect our differences? Can we rise above cannibalism?

We all have crap in life, from life experiences, and we all have to work on our crap. If we do not, it shows and it will ultimately bite us in the backside.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[EmmanuelTop]

Where did you observe this resentment? Can you make a reference (thread, post)?

Don't say "Oh, I cannot find it now" because most of the misunderstanding (and resentment) starts from lack of straight conversation between people, or because of generalized statements (when you want to say something but you go 'around the world and back to 653 AD' to say it). Somebody calls that politics, somebody calls it thoughtfulness, and for some folks it is pure B/S. So we need a good example.

Dejan IVANOVIC
Process Engineer, MSChE

 

[moltenmetal]

A refreshing perspective lacajun! And an excellent question.

My experience shows that engineers are extremely reluctant to view their own success as having anything to do with chance, good timing etc. They like to think of themselves as self-made people. This limits their compassion for others who are not succeeding, even when on a little examination it is clear that they are the victims of those factors beyond their control. That's regrettable and causes some unnecessary suffering. We would all do better to be more compassionate with one another!

Engineers tend to overgeneralize their own anecdotal experience also, in my experience. This is an evolved strategy which is professionally useful but can lead to some incorrect conclusions if it cannot be set aside as a bias when it is clearly the case. For instance, most engineers of a certain age are perfectly willing to accept the myth of a generalized shortage of engineers on face value, without giving it a second thought. Not all, but most. Mid career engineers, in my experience, are the hardest people to convince that we have a massive oversupply of engineering graduates here in Canada for this reason.

As far as intraprofessional rivalries and the like, those are not unique to or even most pronounced in the profession of engineering. Some professional engineers are very self important, that's true, but they don't measure on the same scale as lawyers or medical doctors...

 

[TheTick]

I used to cry about this kind of crap. Then I just stopped and got more positive. Life is good. It's good to be.

 

[lacajun]

ET, I am not going to call anyone out or any thread out. People can gauge for themselves.

mm, agreed. This article provides insight into biases and blind spots: Surprising downsides of being clever I've talked to some people recently that readily and easily admit they've had support over their lifetimes, they were at the right place at the right time, and people have been good to them over their lifetimes. They did not reach their positions alone.

Tick, agreed and am on the same path.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[cranky108]

I see it as the outside influence of management always trying to build a higher silo. We need to be better than the other department, company, country, ect. A sort of games thinking vs the engineers logical thinking.
And some of this comes from the military trying to make the enemy seem less than us. So some of this is a result of being played my managers.

True enough I refuse to train the engineer in the other department because he works for a guy I swear has horns (I have stories).

And no I refuse to answer an e-mail while I am driving, or eating, or in the bathroom, etc. I don't need technology controlling me like the young people.

And if you want my respect, shake my hand, cover the tat's, and remove the nose ring, and put on a wig. Respect is earned.

I actually don't see a shortage of engineers. I see a shortage of experenced engineers, and HR people who can tell the difference.

 

[beej67]

If I manage to eat all of you, I'll be the world's only remaining engineer, and then I win 100% of the market share.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[ewh]

It doesn't bother me. As stated, we are all on different courses in life. I do not have the same viewpoint or hold the same opinions as I did when I first started coming here, and clever or snarky comments only represent where in their travels the commenter is currently at. This does not affect the value I get from the knowledge freely given here.

Like tick says, life is good and it is good to be.

"A long, long time to be gone and a short time to be here" to paraphrase Robert Hunter.

"Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively."
-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[IRstuff]

It's not necessarily a matter of lack of compassion, sort of. I view the world and people as mostly mechanistic. To not do something is therefore, an act of will, i.e., you CHOOSE to not act or not do something. If it's something that I think you should be doing or should have done already, like a frigging Google search, BEFORE you posted your question, then I'm not necessarily going to apply my sympathies to you, because the first I did when I say your question was to Google it. So, in my view, you CHOOSE to not do a websearch and do some reading. That's the epitome of "lazy student" syndrome. One of the reasons for my almost automatically redflagging students is that most of the time, they don't seem to have done any work, and appear to be looking for an easy handout.

As for the general contention, it often goes well beyond compassion, or even courtesy. When every reply is laced with vitriolic red-baiting and aspersions about your intelligence, it generally takes a much better person than I to not reply in kind. It seems odd to me that there are those that think nothing of accusing the scientific or engineering community as a whole of being complicit in massive conspiracies that defy rational thinking. But, this is merely a reflection of our broader society and the nearly complete lack of courtesy and politeness that has been steadily diminishing since the beginning of the 20th century

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529


Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

 

[MikeHalloran]

I used to work in a fairly large privately owned company. The billionaire owner and Chairman collected Chinese art, and also collected talented engineers and PhDs from all relevant disciplines, from all over the world.

He and his brother the President used to make said people aware of each other, in ways that often resulted in memo wars, or even polite but personal confrontations.

For a while, I thought the brothers were doing it just to amuse themselves. ... but I'm a little slow on the uptake. After quite a while, I realized that they were using friction to rub off the rough edges and corrosion.

Eng-Tips at its best works the same way.

N smart people with different perspectives will perceive a single problem in at least N+1 ways, more likely in N! ways. It would be naive to expect all of them to propose the same solution on the first attempt.

After the initial skirmish and comparative anatomy, so to speak, those who wish to continue participating, will come back with better answers, and better defenses of those answers.

Further negotiation may eventually produce not a consensus, but a set (usually smaller than N) of avenues to investigate and to re-evaluate against the original problem, hopefully now better defined as part of the process. The process is rarely pretty, but it can be effective.

It is the responsibility of Management and The Community to minimize collateral damage and maintain some civility. That last can be especially difficult in a global community with disparate expectations for, well, everything.

If you think a particular discussion has become too contentious, you are free to Red Flag it or to ignore it.
I have tried a number of other options; none worked.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[SLTA]

Pamela, I've noticed it comes and goes in waves. When it comes, I either call it and ask people to remember to be civil, or step back myself for a while. Right now seems to be a bit of relative calm, but that may be that I'm simply not on here enough lately to see the chaos that is there.

In my view, there is never an excuse to be a jerk. Try your best to be polite or just step away and let someone else answer. Disagreement is fine; arguing because you're clearly the most brilliant person ever just isn't. Of course, I'm not perfect at this, but I try to do the best I can.

And welcome back, by the way. I'm glad to see you here again.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[dvd]

It definitely feeds on itself. When I first got involved in this website there seemed to be more inquiries and a lot less members. After a while the membership increased, the inquiries died down, the crankiness cranked up, and members slunk off, thus perpetuating the cycle. I think if there were more interesting questions to answer there would be less circling and sniffing for the smell of blood in the air.

I acknowledge that this website is someone's personal property and the group needs to play by the rules, but I still think student inquiries should be welcomed - we all need to mentor the next generation.

 

[IRstuff]

"we all need to mentor the next generation"

That isn't the issue; it's the 90% that here solely to leach.

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529


Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

 

[dvd]

Seems like kind of a dismal outlook.

 

[desertfox]

Is there evidence that suggests that other professions are any different?
What I'm thinking is that two doctors give two different opinions, now they might not tell you as a member of the public what one thinks about the other's opinion but they might within their feelings amongst there own ranks.

 

[IRstuff]

Actually, isn't the opposite kind of true? Isn't that why it's always recommended to get a second opinion? My coworker has had a couple of instances already where one doctor recommended drastic surgery, while another recommended a wait and see. On the obverse is the fact that doctors's patient diagnoses are not for public consumption, so it's unlikely that there would be public discussions such as on this forum.

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529


Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
There is a homework forum hosted by engineering.com:

http://www.engineering.com/AskForum/aff/32.aspx

 

[desertfox]

Its not always recommended to seek a second opinion and that's a matter of choice but my point is I don't think there is any less contention in other professions when compared to engineering.
I agree confidentiality prevents public discussion using names however cases can be discussed provided no true identity is revealed.

Now the majority of us here have handles and so our true names or identities are not revealed unless we decide otherwise and discussions and disagreements are supposed to be kept to a technical level, if not the posts are removed.
If people wish to be rude to one another then that's down to their own personality and not their profession.

 

[swall]

Pamela--I am also glad to see you back.

 

[Maui]

Pamela, the best advice I could give you is this,

"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

- Max Ehrmann

Maui

 

[DeleteriousPhases]

I don't fundamentally agree with the opening post (at the possible expense of being considered yet another 'cannibal')

with regard to a workplace, people have low patience. even with new people or new trainee's, it's just the nature of the wolf pack. (ie: why can't you run as fast as we can?? *frustration*)

with regard to this forum I identify 2 main factors and a multitude of subfactors at work here:

1) the internet with it's subfactors-
a)you cannot hear, see, touch, or sense a person's emotions on this forum - something that someone posted with a good intent may be viewed as offensive by someone else.
b)anonymity effect may influence some people's posts

2) math. - after you've done enough of it, you solve problems much quicker than the average bear. there are just some bears that have been solving problems for 20 years and do it so quickly they get irate waiting for slower bears to arrive at the same conclusion, both in their daily lives as well as at the workplace.

I view this forum as a weld. first coming to it, you resemble a 6010 weld made by an apprentice welder. jagged and rough, crazy undercut and notch effect everywhere. Over time the surface flaws and discontinuities get ground out. rewelding is probably required as well.

in the end you have a pleasing product both sound in its chemistry as well as its mechanical properties.

getting to that finished state may be rougher for most but in the end, having someone with the guts to tell you that you're wrong outright, rather than leave you to think your mistakes are good is the worse injustice. I guess being able to show some class while pointing out errors is the societal key. But society or not, engineering is either sound or unsound. it's pass or fail. and lives may depend on that call.