Educational standards ??? What standards ?? 10

[RDK]

http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=11300002RKP5

Nearing a diploma, most college students cannot handle many complex but common tasks, from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food. Those are the sobering findings of a study of literacy on college campuses, the first to target the skills of students as they approach the start of their careers.

More than 50 percent of students at four-year schools and more than 75 percent at two-year colleges lacked the skills to perform complex literacy tasks.

That means they could not interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school.

How did these illiterates ever get out of high school?

Presumably some of them are graduating with engineering degrees.


It doesn’t say much for the future of a knowledge based society does it?

Almost 20 percent of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station. About 30 percent of two-year students had only basic math skills.

Anyone want to explain a complex technical idea to a group made up of these people?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[davefitz]

Well, this sort of explains how other things can happen in society. Re-election of certain political canditates; top TV show "skating with the stars"; continuing habits regarding over-eating, driving 4 mpg SUV's,spending binges with over-extended credit, and zero physical exercise notwithstanding continual reminders that each of these practices lead down the short road to being fat , dumb and happy. Which kind of explains the need for most persons to be on medications that were unneccesary and unheard-of 20 yrs ago.

 

[RDK]

Exactly.

If university graduates cannot function at a high level of problem solving and literacy then how can they be expected to put together the fact of massive trade deficits, massive government deficits and accumulated debt into a long term unsustainable economy?

The general US population is swayed by short term economic gains with no real idea that they will have to pay for this later.

Canada is not much better. We just elected (yesterday) a government that has promised massive tax cuts and spending increases which will wipe out the only G8 government fiscal surplus to re-instate the same party that ran up our debt in the first place.

It’s ironic that they call themselves Conservative while the Liberal party is the one that got our financial house in order.

Simply one example of a population that cannot function at a high rate of problem solving and literacy being able to see through the issues and look at the best long term solution. (Not that the Liberal party was squeaky clean, they had more than their share of incompetence and scandal, just that the solutions that were bought by the voters are not sustainable and the decision was swayed more by stile than substance.)

BTW literacy is not a binomial state. There are many degrees of literacy and what the study was talking about was that collage and university students nearing the end of their studies could not function at the top level of literacy.

We all know of many other examples where the public perception of an issue was swayed more by style than substance. PCB is a highly stable chemical. The population thinks that they are the most hazardous chemical around when it is only the by products of low temperature combustion that are the problem not the PCB’s themselves. (PCB is however usually contaminated by these byproducts and they are produced at normal fire temperatures.)

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[arunmrao]

Sorry about the late posting.Time difference perhaps!!. I too was amazed reading the article. But a clarification was also there that students with science and maths background fared better and possessed good quantitative abilities,while those from humanities and fine arts etc displayed these low skills.

I went to sleep peacefully thereafter.

 

[denoid]

A couple of "coincidences" for you:

1. My daughter's junior year (high school) math homework is graded on whether it is complete and turned in, not whether the answers are correct.

2. Last Sunday's newspaper said that the USA has fallen from 3rd to 17th in rankings of number of students that are going into engineering, since the math and science are too difficult for them.

Coincidence? I think not!

 

[DaveVikingPE]

MrMojito - I've been in jails before, too... Why would you cry? Because you got caught? Seriously, crime pays, it's got a high risk, that's all. Most normal people (like myself) do not commit crimes. Yet there are criminals. Repeat offenders, hardened members of the convicted class. Why don't they stop? Boggles the mind.

davefitz "Well, this sort of explains how other things can happen in society. Re-election of certain political canditates; top TV show "skating with the stars";"

What's wrong with "Skating with the Stars"? Don't be such a snob. You can always turn off the TV (personally, I don't watch TV, except for Ultraman reruns). An engineer designed the skating rink, an engineer designed all the video equipment. You got a problem with that?

Let's keep this in mind: the kids referenced in the article in question are not the future, not by a long shot. Why? Simple: a 30-year old engineer, possibly somone on this board, has what, arguably 40 more years in the workforce as an engineer? That's 40 years, enough for two generations. And plenty of time to "fix" the mess.

How many of us would/could refuse to work on a big shopping mall project? Do you know how awful to the culture shopping malls are? How about movie theaters, or worse, TV and electronics stores, that flush our homes with the sewer of lowest common denominator "entertainment"?

 

[epoisses]

Excellent!! We like our customers to be rich and stupid!

But honestly... without having much actual knowledge about the situation across the Atlanctic, I think this survey has been set up, carried out and presented with only one objective in mind: come up with something shocking.

So college student are unable to tell if they have enough gas left or have to fill up, to tell how much they are supposed to tip or to analyse news storied... Is this an ACTUAL problem? How many of all car drivers run out of gas routinely on the US road network every day? 30%? 1%? 0.01%? How many people give a 0.10$ or a 100$ tip because they can't do the math? How many newspapers are sold even if they're incomprehensible? And who designs cars, who makes credit card offers and who writes articles in the newspaper - did those people go anywhere else than to college?

 

[Ashereng]

This article certainly makes for attention grabbing.

Scary isn't it!

How many newspapers are sold even if they're incomprehensible? And who designs cars, who makes credit card offers and who writes articles in the newspaper - did those people go anywhere else than to college?

Looks to me like someone is getting their bonus - if their intent was to "stir" up some discussion and grab our attention, they certainly got it.

I wonder if there was a similar survey done 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years ago? This sounds a lot like when I was a teenager and my parent's friends were bemoaning the lack of education/moral/taste (bell bottoms anyone) of my generation, and the prediction that my generation is going to h-e-double hockey sticks in a handbasket.

 

[davefitz]

I seem to recall reading that there were similar prognostications about the shortcomings of the younger generation published back in roman times and also in ancient Greece. The more things change ,the more they remain the same.

 

[ziggi]

I'm way too young to be referencing the past, but from what I've heard from my elders, the oldsters have always complained about the youngins, I'm 25 and recently took in a 16 yr old foster kid as well as my 18yr old brother in law. When I see the way they act or dress I worry about the future of society, but then I remember that my dad thought the same thing about me when I was a teen and that my grandfather thought the same thing about my dad when my dad was a teen.

It's the same crap over and over again. I already know that a young adult doesn't know much about budgeting or quick calcs, but when I was young neither did I, you live and learn, and I'm still learning. However what really annoys me are those old farts who keep telling the youngins about how life was in their day and how they respected this and worshipped that....whatever gramps, society changes as do its inhabitants, get over it.

Finally as for the dumbing down of society...good let it happen, the really smart ones don't let the dummies get them down and eventually rise to the top, by takign advantage of their stupidity. Meanwhile the moderately smart (read: mediocre) whine and complain about the dummies and eventually give up.
I won't watch 'Skating with the stars' b/c I think it's retarded, and while I like 'Stella Artios' beer alot, I generally refuse to buy it b/c I know that the brewer has artificially inflated the price to bring it into the premium beer category (b/c all the dummies think that if a beer is expensive it's better....the same applies to wine)

 

[2dye4]

There are many ideas circling around that propose that
you can model a society or group of people with concepts
that apply to single biological entities.

Such as the phrase
"Use it or loose it"
Refering to an aspect of a living thing declining and
eventually disappearing because of little use. Maybe
evolution or another cause.

So what happens to a society without survival stress.
Smarts do not gain people appreciable survival skill
in times of plentiful supplies. Is it not expected then
that intellegence would slowly be diminished ??

Does this go on until a correction ??

Is it possible the human race will split into two paths
thinkers and workers ??

 

[RDK]

I think that the dumbing down of society will continue until there is a survival need for a correction.

However I fear that the magnitude of the correction might be too much for the species or our society as we know it or can imagine it to survive.

I’m thinking about the correction being a nuclear war.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[zdas04]

2dye4,
That was the premise of The Time Machine by H.G. Wells. The hero goes forward from the 1800's for many thousands of years and finds that there was a race of lotus-eaters on the surface and a race of workers in underground caverns--each terrified of the other. An interesting story about what happens when you "lose it" from lack of use.

David

 

[ziggi]

zdas04,
You didn't understand the proper meaning behind "The Time Machine".
First off the underground dwellers were not frightened of the above ground dwellers.
The above ground dweller's society seemed like a utopia, but they were essentially food for the below ground dwellers, who came out at night and kidnapped a few above grounders at a time. HG Wells was attempting to reflect the fragility of a "perfect" society among other things.

As an aside, Roman culture/art/entertainment was at it's most tasteless right before it collapsed. That doesn't mean it will happen now.
It's human nature to be lazy, we try to find the simplest solution to a problem, it's what all creatures do. The majority of people will be sedentary if given the chance.

I also don't think that a nuke war will EVER happen. As long as there's money to be made, nobody from the ruling class will destroy land, people, resources willingly, at least not in large amounts ie. via nuke. Basically greed and a fear of the unknown keeps us all alive. It's like playing chess, no player in his right mind will sacrifice his own queen to MAYBE take his opponent's queen.
As long as the market exists crap will be put on TV.

However I do agree that humanity does need a goal, something to test us all. I don't think that a war is the answer, maybe a discovery of extraterrestrial life and or habitable space outside of earth. I don't really know.

 

[UcfSE]

Not everyone is as dumb as the news media suggests. Just because it is in print doesn't mean it is true or that it isn't skewed. People are not getting dumber. We still have some smart people and a whole bunch of dumb ones, as usual. 100 years ago they had stupid people too. The media reports on what they want you to think. If they take the normal lazy students and sensationalize their story and don't have anything to balance it, then of course you're going to think we're all just going down the tubes.

You need to do your best to raise your kids not to be lazy and dumb and then you've helped. You and your children need to have a good sense of personal responsibility and not a good sense of how to pass the buck for substandard achievement and substandard drive. It does more to help a child learn to think and help him or her learn how to learn than it does to arm wave and profess and post.

 

[RDK]

Anyone think that a direct result of the dumbing down of the population is spam, telemarketers and instant loan places?

I don’t know about the media being smart enough to lead people to what they want to think. Every reporter that I have ever met was as dumb as a post. (and when I was involved in a national issue I met some of the so called best reporters in the country.) They come to a story with a preconceived notion; usually the most outrageous angle and they don’t let the facts stand in the way of reporting that story.

If it could not be told in a sound bite they were not interested in the facts behind the issue.

Politicians were even worse. The only one of many nationally prominent politicians that I met with on this issue who actually listened to the background facts and then asked intelligent facts and appeared to understand the issue was the then premier of Manitoba (equal to a US governor) Garry Filman P.Eng

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[PSE]

RDK

You bring to light the saying,

"Don't cloud the issue with the facts".

Regards,

 

[Ataloss]

Originally posted by RDK: "Anyone think that a direct result of the dumbing down of the population is spam, telemarketers and instant loan places?"

No, I don't think that. Spam is just junk mail, which has been around for as long as I can remember, in a new form. While I hate spam, I'd almost say it shows the creativity and inventiveness of society that people were able to so quickly learn how to use this new technology to flood our inboxes with idiotic offers for cheap drugs from Canada and Mexico.

Telemarketers are nothing new, and could be compared to door to door salesman of pre-telephone (and supposedly less dumbed-down) times. They're just employees trying to get the word out about a product or service for their company.

Instant loan places are fairly new, as far as I know (unless you count loan sharks), but I seem to think of them more as responding to the irresponsibilty and greed of people more than stupidity. I suppose you could argue that irresponsibility is a trait of the stupid, but I know of quite a few people who seem to be pretty smart who do some pretty irresponsible things (Richard Feynman for example). If you had said "interest-only mortgages" as being a sign of the dumbing down of society, then I would agree with you, but even then some people have made some really good money in markets with rapidly rising home prices (or so the rumour goes).

Bob

 

[Ashereng]

What irresponsible thing did Richard Feynman do?

 

[qcme]

A person's ability to balance a checkbook and accomplish other tasks isn't based on their education, said Seattle Central student Jennifer Chapton, 22.

"It's not about your book smarts," she said. "It's about your street smarts."

What was learned in college does not reflect what the real world is.

I was once told by a CEO of a company (the guy was really old and ran a pretty small but successful company) I was interviewing with (being just out of college myself) that I will only get to use 10% of my knowledge from college...

I have to admit there a lot of things I didn't know how to do when i graduated. And guess what? I learned what real world really is about the 6 months I was out of school not DURING school.

I agree there are also the spoiled kids that really have no idea what is going on in the world but these are also the same people that after they got out of college they STILL refuse to learn anything to become independent.

What is learned in school is all theory. Graduating with an engineering degree, I think only one course allowed me to see how engineering is being used in the real world and that's my senior design project. All of my other courses expect the students to believe in "the ideal world" such as a place where gravity does not act on anything...how does that help students understand the real world where gravity does in fact do something?

I always joke with my friends that college has made me dumb because I do not know common sense and common knowledge.

So which is better? Knowing how to calculate a differential equation or how much my groceries will cost me in a month?

There are also a lot of students that have to work for their own tuition. They have more common knowledge than me as they have to deal with those things while I didn't have to. There are also a lot of people that never had any college education but know more things than I can count with my own fingers.

Perhaps the US higher education institutions (or any higher education institution in any country for that matter) should incorporate common knowledge into the curriculum...?

 

[bioengr82]

qcme-
The ability to solve differential equations and estimate food cost are mutually exclusive?...I don't get it.

I find myself agreeing with most of what has be posted here to some degree and can perhaps add one more thing. While I believe that the relative number of stupid, average, and smart people hasn't changed; and that different people have different talents (I can't spell worth a crap, so despite my engr. degree, a 8th grade grammar teacher could still consider me below average); I think the number of average and below average people being admitted the Universities HAS greatly increased. Whereas before a degree was a standard or tool with which could be used to evaulate a person's credintials, now one must question.

As a result, many classes have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator with absurd grade distributions. While taking my required humanities (I'm class 04) many classes had over 80% getting and 'A'...how can everyone be superior? what happened to the gentlemen's 'C'. The old bell curve grading distribution seems to have been replaced with a polynomial in which only the absolute dumbest and laziest can not achieve at least a 'C' or 'B'.

I credit our emerging culture of 'feelings' where a person's self-esteem is more important than the correct anwser. RE: denoid's daughter's homework assignments. Politially correct 'everyone's a winner and special' attitude in public schools where competiveness is being weeded out is slowly destroying America's ability to compete with the rest of the world that emphasizes being right and the the best.

I'll end my rant by summing a survey I recently read: American and their foreign exchange counterparts in the same college class were given the same test and replied to a series of questions regarding how they felt they did. The American students responded much more confidently than the exchange. When the results came back, the exchange students, on average, performed far better than the American. When given a second round of questions about how they felt about their score, the American students were far more satisfied with theirs than the exchange. So to summarize, we are raising people who feel far prouder for performing far less. In contrast, other countries are raising students who are less satisifed with better performance.