Educational standards ??? What standards ?? 10

[RDK]

http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=11300002RKP5

Nearing a diploma, most college students cannot handle many complex but common tasks, from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food. Those are the sobering findings of a study of literacy on college campuses, the first to target the skills of students as they approach the start of their careers.

More than 50 percent of students at four-year schools and more than 75 percent at two-year colleges lacked the skills to perform complex literacy tasks.

That means they could not interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school.

How did these illiterates ever get out of high school?

Presumably some of them are graduating with engineering degrees.


It doesn’t say much for the future of a knowledge based society does it?

Almost 20 percent of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station. About 30 percent of two-year students had only basic math skills.

Anyone want to explain a complex technical idea to a group made up of these people?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[ScottyUK]

Politially correct 'everyone's a winner and special' attitude in public schools where competiveness is being weeded out is slowly destroying America's ability to compete with the rest of the world that emphasizes being right and the the best.

At least the UK and the US will be able to compete on equal terms. Nowadays it seems impossible to fail an exam unless you don't turn up to take it. The grades get better and the standard continues to decline year by year.

We are only fooling ourselves: the upcoming economies in the East must be laughing themselves to sleep knowing that they won't need to worry about there being any competition from the West within a couple of generations.


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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[RDK]

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/vol_5/5_2/q6_2.asp

Participation in higher education. The enrollment rate in higher education was higher in the United States than in the five other countries presented in 1999. While the net enrollment rate in higher education was relatively stable in the United States, France, and Germany between 1994 and 1999, the rate increased in the United Kingdom.


….


First university degrees in science, including mathematics. In 1999, the United States awarded a smaller percentage of first university degrees in science than Canada, France, Germany, and the United Kingdom. About 10 percent of all first university degrees awarded in science in the United States were in mathematics and statistics—the lowest percentage of the five countries presented.


….


Expenditures per student for higher education. In 1998, expenditures per student for higher education were higher in the United States than in all other countries presented—more than twice as high as in Germany, Japan, and the United Kingdom, and more than two and one-half times as high as in France. Between 1995 and 1998, all countries presented showed increases in average expenditures per student for higher education. During this period, the gap widened in average expenditures per student for higher education between the United States and the other countries presented.
Expenditures for higher education as a percent of GDP. In 1998, public expenditures for higher education as a percent of GDP were higher in the United States than in the six other countries presented, except Canada. With the addition of private expenditures, the United States replaced Canada as the country with the highest expenditures for higher education as a percent of GDP. This contrasts with the position of the United States (in the middle of the six countries) for expenditures on primary and secondary education as a percent of GDP.

The US spends more as percent of GDP (and since it has the highest GDP per capita the most in absolute terms as well) than the other countries surveyed and has a higher percentage of the population at university than the other countries but graduates a lower percentage of math and science (presumably including engineering) than the other countries.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[ziggi]

I'm not sure what university you went to bioengr82 but I found univ to be bloody difficult, as did most of the people I went to univ with (I'm class of '03). Even our electives were difficult, mostly b/c the average engineer didn't have the necessary essay writing and writing analysis skills to accurately describe what Nietsche was trying to say with his.......well whatever he was talking about. I stuck to history and politics mostly, they make sense to me.

I do disagree with this shift away from meritocracy to 'feelings' as the hippy freaks call it, bloody hippies and their love and emotions and especially their politically correct nonsense

 

[JoeTank]

Mr Kitson,
Thought you would interested to know that PE Magazine just published an article about the number of engineers graduating in the US, China and India. A recent article, frequently cited in these forums, appears to be incorrect about the numbers of graduates. PE magazine cites stats that show that the US still leads the way in engineering grads on a per capita basis. The Indian and Chinese stats previously published, include a lot of two and three year technical and science diploma/degrees. So maybe we're not as far back as some have opined.


Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[RDK]

Steve

Any link to that article?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[JoeTank]

Mr Kitson,
It's in a hard copy magazine. I couldn't find it on

http://www.NSPE.org.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[RDK]

Did they make any reference to the underlying data and source of information?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[JoeTank]

Mr Kitson,
I can't post my email address here, so please go to our website and post a message. It will be routed to me. Let me know how I can get some info back to you.


Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[JoeTank]

Mr Kitson,
I just found a reference... Duke University School of Engineering.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[Ashereng]

RDK,

The exact link of the study is

http://memp.pratt.duke.edu/downloads/duke_outsourcing_2005.pdf

 

[CarolinaPE]

I think part of the reason is the importance (or lack of) hiring managers place on where people received their education. Many today could care less as long as "they have a degree in such and such". I have even heard some very well respected business owners say where one received the degree from made no difference. From experience, (I attended one highly ranked U and one not so highly ranked) that the quality of the student varies drastically from place to place. The best of the lower ranked school could have held their own at the higher ranked institution. The rest....I'm not so sure they would have fared well at all. If nobody is rewarded for going through the more rigorous education then what is the incentive?

 

[BigH]

bioengr82 - about the dumbing down - a case history - my daughter. Age 14. Was in Grade 8 in India (small town convent school). Average student. Had to leave before completing the grade. Spent 3 months doing nothing at new assignment. Has since been sent to USA for schooling. Took the placement test. She now has 4 grade 10 subjects and 4 grade 9 subjects. Hmmmmmm.
As for what China and India calls engineers, be careful. In the latter, there are some fine institutions (Indian Institute of Technology, National Insitute of Technology) - where students use MIT, Cornell, Harvard as fall backs if they don't get accepted (to IITs). But, the overall bulk of engineers - perhaps technicians at best. As for China, I remember reading a factoid that some 54% of the Chinese Rural doctors never completed grade 6. Hmmmm.
to all - a pretty good discussion. Thanks Rick!

 

[biglinda]

I think a lot of the problem lies with quality of teachers in middle school and high school. If you get turned off by a subject early in life, if given the chance, you will most likely avoid that subject in higher education. I speak from experience. I had a horrible teacher in the 8th grade which completely ruined history for me. Also poor foundations laid by high schools force colleges to waste time catching the children up to speed.

The American school systems tends to attract mediocre science and math teachers. I myself have looked into becoming a math teacher, and have all the required coursework. But I am unwilling to live off 1/3 of my current salary, with no hope of ever reaching my current standard. And as a young engineer, with only 4 years experience, my engineering salary will only increase with time.

No, I do not think teachers will ever be paid what engineers are paid. I would be willing to take a reasonable pay cut if the work were rewarding. But with the current standardized testing requirements and the large class room sizes I do not think even that is possible. I read somewhere that there is a most teachers quit after their first year due to their dissatisfaction. Teachers are overworked and underpaid and before that is a remedied there is no way our children can excel. Our children aren't getting dumber it's the system that's failing them.

 

[bioengr82]

biglinda-
On the other extreme, you could never have a teacher (or a class for that matter): unschooling

 

[bushel3]

Three comments

1) I think that standards for excellence are to low in many schools.

My wife's grammer school isn't allowed to fail anyone unless they submit paperwork at Christmas. Basically that means you have to be ready to fail them after the first quarter, so you can get all the paper work together by Christmas. (It rarely happens even though it often should.) At my college (grad 03) there was a drastic difference between an engineering class and anthing else. I can't write/spell/read well and I worked 1/2 as hard, skipped classes and still was at the top of the class in each of my non-engineering classes. In one class I wrote papers about two hours before they were due, didn't proof read them and turned them in. I got an A-. I didn't deserve it, if I don't proof read my writing is best used as toilet paper. I had many friends who couldn't complete the engineering courses (too many C's and D's) and went on to get straight A's in other subjects.

2) We need higher standards for teachers.

My wife also just graduated from the same school as an elementary school teacher. She is very smart, valedictorian at every school (including college) she ever attended. She had to take math classes where they spent two weeks covering the number line. (Negitive integers can be tricky.) Some of her classmates struggled with this. Now as a 4th grade teacher she works with people who have trouble explaining what an expository paper is or how to do long division. She is constantly attending meetings where they make her feel like she is back in the first grade. She loves to teach and doesn't mind being poorly compensated but continually feels like the administration is insulting her intellegence. Both of us are bothered by the fact that people who seem so dumb are allowed to teach. How are kids supposed to learn something the teacher doesn't know. Perhaps the place that standards need to be raised is with our teachers. The smart teachers (of which there are many) would have no trouble. And if the smart ones had a little trouble that might be good so they would touch up on their weak areas. (On the down side, you'd have to pay more to get smarter teachers and then taxes would increase.)

3) Need more separation in junior/high school as in other contries.

I wish my high school would have challenged me more. I only studied for one class in high school. It was the first and only C I ever got in high school. I had to work really hard and had a B average over the whole. Because of the difficulty I was able to do very well on the A.P. test without having to study much. The rest of my classes I showed up for and did homework. Sometimes I forgot that we had a test until the test was in hand. I had friends w/ a similar experience.

My school had "honors and regular" classes. The regular classes were made so easy that unmotivated or really dumb people could pass them. The motivated but not gifted people ended up in the honors classes with the gifted people. That is fine, but that limits the degree of difficultly possible in those classes.

When I got to college my friends and I were hit very hard with the reality that we had to study. We didn't "party" to much but we had never studied in our lives so all of us got grades lower than what we were capable of. It took me until my junior year of college to really learn how to hit the books. My junior and senior year I often set the curve in my classes. It would have helped me greatly to have some really challenging classes in high school. I think the best way to do that is to have more levels of classes in high school. Students who plan on doing science related subjects for their careers should have to take harder science classes than people who plan to do humanities related careers for the rest of their life. Or those gifted in science should be pushed in their science classes. On that note, I did not belong in the highest english or forgiegn language class. All I did is slow the really gifted language people down. I should have been in the middle level for people who were motivated, but not gifted. Not to mention, those who are going to be trades people should have opportunites to take trades classes. My high school basically dropped all of its trades classes. I don't think this all needs to be decided by a single test. You should be allowed to move if your grades indicate that would be best for you. You should also be able to test a mix of the classes to help you narrow down what you like and what you are good at. However, just because you like something doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it.

 

[UcfSE]

However, just because you like something doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it.

Amen! Nice post. I had almost the exact same experience with the studying, having been in several AP and dual-enrollment classes in high school and gifted since first grade. I didn't need to study until late in college and grad school and then it was tough to get into the habit. It is unfortunate that the mindset of those deciding the governing of schools is to allow the slower students to act as speed bumps or brick walls for those who can excel much farther than they are being permitted.

 

[ziggi]

I actually noticed the same thing whilst at high school, I only really studied hard for my final exams in my final year. I always found it peculiar that other kids were having trouble, but I guess we're not all equal, and I was lucky enough to go to a good high school, nearly everybody from my class went on to univ, most are actuaries, geologists, engineers etc.
My experience with univ was slightly different, I found the first two years bloody difficult just like more other people, but that was primarily due to the sudden influx of studying that was required. I found it easy going in my last two years, but that's probably b/c I got into the swing of things by then.

 

[Twoballcane]

Hey, don’t blame the kids, maybe its’ the system (

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338).

 

[BigH]

Good article. In India in almost all towns with what one would call lower middle class or better, kids have private tutors starting in kindergarten. When they prepare for the Grade 10 and Grade 12 exams, they sometimes have as many as 7 tutors - one for each subject. There are whole businesses founded on the principal of tutoring the Indian students. Of course, these students don't have interschool sports, or school dances, or proms, or . . . but they are kicking our kid's butts in the sciences and maths - and even English (proper English).

 

[ziggi]

BigH,
My experience with Indians, those straight out of India is that they value bureaucracy and covering their heinies more than anything else. That's not to say they're not exceptionally well educated, however from what I've seen if it's not in a book or from a book it's unacceptable.