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Flint Municipal water 89

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moon161

moon161

Mechanical
Dec 15, 2007
1,181
So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.



There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?
 
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Flint is really a cautionary tale about cities in steep decline which carry the costs of infrastructure for a larger population than the current one can afford. No one wants to bear the up-front costs of creating a system that can withstand an orderly shutdown if it costs even one extra nickel more.

I do wonder about all the other cities that have higher lead levels than Flint does now.
 
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3DDave (Aerospace) said:
Flint is really a cautionary tale about cities in steep decline which carry the costs of infrastructure for a larger population than the current one can afford. No one wants to bear the up-front costs of creating a system that can withstand an orderly shutdown if it costs even one extra nickle more.
Click to expand...

The tale is the zero sum development rules. Developers use the existing laws to cause wasteful urban sprawl. Developers promote zero sum movement from an urban area to vacant land, converting farmland into suburbs and the resulting abandonment of urban areas.
 
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Hi bimr,

I think I remember some still booming automotive industry in Flint when I lived there in 1968/1969.
Not much of that, or employment it provided, is left these days, and the population appears to have declined to 1920s level.

Would you say developers had a hand in that?

regards,

Dan T
 
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Developers are making use of the existing laws to encourage people and business to relocate. Close a business in Flint to get a taxpayer funded economic development entitlement to relocate to X (name the State). For the most part, this is a zero sum game. One community gains and the next loses. Same deal for housing developments in the far suburbs.

Same process for NFL stadiums. The owners says build me a new stadium or I will relocate. The new stadium indirectly enriches the owner at taxpayer expense. Same thing that amazon is doing right now.

"But continuing on the path of traditional incentive-based economic development policy will simply produce an unending merry-go-round of tax cuts and subsidies whose net effect is to starve government of the resources it needs to finance the services it should be providing and to make the state and local tax system ever more regressive."

The Failures of Economic
Development Incentives

 
 http://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=d6ed8228-00c3-4302-9850-93758daabfce&file=failures-of-economic-development-incentives.pdf
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The State of Michigan has declared the Flint water crisis over and is halting the program which provided the city residents with bottled water, as well as filters for their taps.

No More Bottled Water For Flint, As Michigan Declares Taps ‘Restored’

The whistleblower who exposed elevated blood lead levels in Flint children says the decision is premature.


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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Elon Musk is getting some negative publicity regarding his Thailand cave submersible:

Thailand Cave rescue

Note sure that one person is capable of solving all of the problems shown on the nightly news/entertainment segments.
 
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bimr - this is more relevant
Unsworth made an uncalled for attack on Musk. As the spotlight on the Thai rescue fades, Unsworth did what he needed to do to relight it. Who better to attack than a guy involved with rocket fuel? It's sad that Musk took the bait. They both need to go back to their rooms and think about what they did.
 
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Agree. Even after admonishing himself for engaging with detractors on Twitter, the Tesla Inc. chief executive officer was at it again this weekend. Shares of the electric-car maker fell 3.6 percent to $307.40 as of 2:11 pm ET after the CEO called a British cave explorer who had criticized him a pedophile. The tweet has been deleted.

Rest of the Story

Are those two too old for a timeout?
 
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Musk only made his comment after the British cave explorer had told him to shove his mini-sub up his arse.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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I judge the Brit’s comment to be justified. Musk tries to meddle and peddle in lots of places where his snake oil is unwanted.
 
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I suspect that those people in Flint who wouldn't have gotten clean water except for Musk, will have a different opinion.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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The Flint problem was mainly caused by income inequality. Replacing the lead service pipes will provide temporary assistance. Mr. Musk's fix will also provide temporary assistance, but does not address the underlying problem, that the people of Flint don't have enough income to afford the municipal water service.
 
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Actually the lack of a quick and adequate response was the REAL issue caused by "income inequality" in that if this had happened in either Grosse Point or Birmingham, Michigan, it would have been taken care of immediately, with no questions asked.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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IMHO, income equality is neither possible nor desirable. But if Musk wants to give money to the poor before he crashes and burns, so be it.
 
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okie66 (Structural) said:
IMHO, income equality is neither possible nor desirable.
Click to expand...

That's the same argument that the plutocrats and kleptocrats make. Let them eat cake! Tuca Vieira’s photo of Paraisópolis:

111_roih7r.png


how the modern world fell in love with money
 
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I will have to look up those big words, but will concede the fundamental difference between you and me.
 
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I thought that the point of municipalities (and other layers of government) was to provide the basic services that everyone needs, with the costs spread over the tax base.

If the people of Flint 'can't afford' clean water, then surely they can't afford fighter jets and police cars, so do they just not deserve anything? No defense, no protection, nothing?

All that said, those who made the decision to switch to an unsafe water supply carry the complete weight on their shoulders.

 
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"with the costs spread over the tax base"

But, that's the basic fallacy of the system, since it essentially requires that each municipal tax base have proportionally comparable ratios of rich to poor, etc. Flint, no longer being a bastion of American manufacturing, means that the lower wage people are stuck with few jobs, while the rich, and even the middle class, can simply escape the city altogether, resulting in a lopsided tax base. But, I doubt that few municipalities can actually afford fighter jets.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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