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Flint Municipal water 89

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moon161

moon161

Mechanical
Dec 15, 2007
1,181
So, Flint has been MI lead poisoned and exposed to legionella bacteria because the water supply was switched from Detroit municipal to the Flint River. Since the polluted river is corrosive and iron rich, lead was leached from pipes and solder into the water of thousands of homes, and legionella bateria (legionaire's diseased) apparently thrived on the dissolved iron.

It was done to save money, it stayed that way because people who knew of the crisis sat on the information and obstructed inquiry.



There HAS to be a (ir)responsible engineer in that chain. What are their duties, did they fail to perform? Would whistleblower action have been appropriate?
 
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It appears that for better than a year, including the time period during which state officials were telling the residents of Flint that it was OK to continue consuming the water coming to their homes from the city's water system, that the state had been supplying bottled water for their own employees working in state owned and operated office buildings in the city:


John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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Snyder helped deliver 1,500 water filters to Flint-area pastors in August, even as his officials assured the public the water was safe. The pastors were given the filters to distribute on the condition they didn't talk about it publicly, MLive reports.


However, Snyder is now saying he found out in October.


Now, Gov. Snyder Wants $41 Million From Feds For Flint Water Fix


The governor said Friday that the needs of people in Flint “far exceed the state’s capability” — and Michigan needs help

"But the governor bristled at the implication that he'd emphasized things such as business tax cuts at the expense of funding infrastructure. A corporate income tax plan Snyder pushed through the state's legislature cut business taxes by $1.7 billion a year."

Meanwhile, the science deniers running congress want to take a whack at the EPA, but not Snyder.


The hearings will be run by Jason Chaffetz:

 
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Are you even reading your own links?

Why would the governor know or care that one of the 1,000 state owned buildings in the state added some water coolers?

This witch hunt you're on is pretty transparent.
 
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jgKRI, if you were referring to my post above, please point out where I ever mention the Governor? If you read what I did post, you'll see where I stated "...that the state had been supplying bottled water for their own employees…". Now I suppose one could equate the "state" with the governor, but that was not my intention.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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You might try reading the link, yourself.

"Why would the governor know or care that one of the 1,000 state owned buildings in the state added some water coolers?"

The Michigan Department of Technology, Management & Budget (DTMB) manages 6.7 million square feet of facility space via 568 leases. Behen (DTMB Director and Michigan CIO ) holds a seat on Governor Rick Snyder’s Cabinet, advising the governor on technology investments and implementing innovative IT programs.


From the looks of his resume, he appears to be another unqualified political appointee of Governor Snyder.

By the way, the number of state owned office buildings is substantially less than 1,000:


Regarding a witch hunt, don't think it is necessary. Governor Snyder insists he is responsible.

"There was a failure of government in terms of people not using common sense enough to prevent this from happening and identifying it soon enough ... and the people that did this work for me, so I am responsible," Snyder says. "My focus now, though is how do we address it? How do we follow up? How do we help these parents and these kids that could go on for years?"

One of the reasons for the situation in Flint is that the MDEQ has suffered decades of budget cuts.

Although the level of state employment has not changed significantly in the last 20 years, the composition has. Exhibit 3 groups state workers into six general categories: human services, general government, regulatory, safety and defense (including corrections), agriculture and natural resources, and transportation. The composition of the state-government work force has changed primarily in two areas.

The human services category (social services, mental health, and public health) has declined sharply, from comprising 52 percent of state employment in the late 1970s to 33 percent today.

The safely and defense category (including State Police and Corrections) has increased dramatically, from 13 percent of the total in the late 1970s to 34 percent today; in the Department of Corrections alone, state employment has more than tripled.
 
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From the link you posted, JohnRBaker:

"The emails are the latest evidence that Gov. Rick Snyder (R) and his administration at multiple junctures failed to take the water crisis seriously or take timely action."

Since you and bimr quoted the same link, it's in his post as well. He was the one I was intent on responding too, but since you posted the same link, for that particular article the same response applies. The bit about the witch hunt wasn't aimed at you.

It's pretty apparent to me that bimr isn't going to able to separate his own personal political agenda from a rational look at what actually happened in flint.

If you want to continue to evaluate the flint water situation by reading Huffpost and claiming you know what REALLY happened, well... Go ahead. I hope that people who want an unbiased look at the facts disregard your posts.
 
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Please keep in mind that I'm from Michigan, my wife lived in Flint when she was in Junior High and she still has a couple cousins living there that she's in regular contact with, so this a bit more personal. And while I did reference that particular item, the issue that I was focusing on was that while state and city officials were telling the residents of Flint that the water was safe to drink, someone in Lansing was quietly going out of their way to protect state employees working in Flint. That was the issue I was trying to highlight. And if it's true that this was done knowing what was being told to the average citizen, then this could be construed as culpable at best, criminal at worst.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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jgKRI,

You seem to have all of the answers. Lets have your explanation.

If you read my posts above, it is clear what happened.

Rick Snyder appoints a kitty litter foundation president in charge of the MDEQ.

An out of control Karegnondi Water Authority wants to set up their own pipeline and water treatment plant to replace Detroit's system.

The MDEQ does not stop them and approves it.

The City of Flint decides to temporarily reopen their own water treatment plant until the Karegnondi Water Authority facility is complete. However, the City of Flint lacks the money, resources, or personnel to accomplish this.

The MDEQ does not stop them and approves it.

The City of Flint operates with poor water quality.

The MDEQ does not stop them and approves it.

But as you offer, it is all the responsibility of those government over-reachers and job-killing regulators at the EPA.
 
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So you are saying the City of Flint, the MDEQ and the EPA all colluded under the leadership of the Rick Snyder?
That seems like a theory from the Whitewater Hotel.

I suspect there might be some bad people in government, but I doubt they colluded to make this mess. It seems more like government failure on several levels, and now they are all finger pointing to direct attention away from there own failures.

Can you prove any meetings between these three groups and Rick Snyder, where lowering water quality was discussed?

Why are you so angry with the one person who admits he is responsible? Why aren't you angry with the finger pointers who refuse to admit they made a mistake?
 
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Who says anyone colluded?

Who says anything about lowering water quality criteria?

All of the following decisions were approved by the MDEQ and require legal permission; the decisions are not something that can be approved without a formal review by the MDEQ. Each one of these decisions requires authorization in writing.

1. An out of control Karegnondi Water Authority wants to set up their own pipeline and water treatment plant to replace Detroit's system.

2. The City of Flint decides to temporarily reopen their own water treatment plant until the Karegnondi Water Authority facility is complete.

3. The City of Flint operates with poor water quality.

The MDEQ could have prevented this from happening.

The Director of the MDEQ approved these decisions. He reports to Rick Snyder.
 
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I lived in MI for about 7 years and turned down a job before I left.

There is something in-bred in MI that seems to strike all politicians and it probably not carried by the water. - This leads to utterly ignoring laws and common sense. The crime levels are a prime example.

The company I worked for would not allow us to take a car south of Flint (the dividing line at the time). One exception was to get a flight out of The Detroit airport if the company plane was not available or the commuter line was filled.

Sometimes a good engineering study does not go far unless the results cannot be recognized or enforced.

Dick

Engineer and international traveler interested in construction techniques, problems and proper design.
 
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Hope they find out how at the City of Flint was responsible.
 
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More nonsense from the MDEQ:


"As the testimony got underway Wednesday, Beauvais shook his head for the committee as Creagh again maintained that federal rules allowed the state DEQ to test for about two years before requiring corrosion controls in Flint, even though the state has already acknowledged it should have required those treatments beforehand to make sure the water was safe."

The existing MDEQ water regulations require treatment for corrosion. Here is the link:


Page 81:
Impossible to understand how Rick Snyder can appoint another incompetent unqualified person to head the MDEQ.


 
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It is a fact that the GM plant switched water sources back to the Lake Huron system.

There's a lot of other stuff in that article that is either a stretch, or not true at all.

Such as saying that every single resident of the city has been exposed to lead-contaminated water. Not the case.

As usual, I'd take any statement from Michael Moore with a grain of salt.
 
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And my understanding is that the state footed the bill to reconnect GM to the Detroit municipal water system, another cost that needs to be added to the total of the 'savings' NOT realized by this decision.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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I hate to say this, but sometimes it makes since for a government agency to spend money to help business.
Normally I would be very fast to say that building an arena to keep a sports team is bad for the people, and paying to connecting a business to a water source seems to be a bad idea.

The bottom line is, there are things that government can do that business can't. The ability to take land for the public good, if used right, is a positive thing. If used wrong it is a negative thing.

I heard it said once that the solution to land gridlock is to allow everyone to value there land at what they think its worth. They can pay taxes on there reported land value, and anyone can purchase that land for the reported land value.
 
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