Iran Bans Women from 77 University Programs, Largely Engineering & Physical Sciences 14

[lacajun]

Oh, cranky... Pft.

You guys wouldn't believe what I've heard from men, across the ranks, over the years. Let's see:
[ul]
[li]Women don't fix things; therefore, they don't make good engineers[/li]
[li]You're taking the place of a man with a family[/li]
[li]You're taking the place of a man that will eventually have a family[/li]
[li]You're taking the place of a man[/li]
[li]You'll never make what I make because you're a woman[/li]
[li]You'll never be viewed as my equal because you're a woman in a man's field[/li]
[li]You'll have to work twice as hard to be better than me[/li]
[li]Women shouldn't be in engineering and certainly not manufacturing[/li]
[li]Women shouldn't be in a male dominated field[/li]
[li]A woman's job is to spit out babies[/li]
[/ul]

Not all men think this way. For those that do, well, men should be wary, too, as they'll have other biases at work.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[ScottyUK]

While I would object to everything on Pamela's list, I equally object to the numerous awards and competitions, grants, scholarships and the like which are open solely to women in a misguided attempt to entice them in to engineering. Equality should mean precisely that: equal pay, equal terms, equal conditions, equal funding, equal everything else in return for equal effort and equal productivity. The use of gender-specific awards etc in the name of 'equality' is almost comical in its hippocracy.

Cranky's 'fix it' observation applies to pretty much all kids today: pretty much none of them have a clue how to maintain their car, or fix their bike, or repair their stereo. Gender equality has indeed been achieved, but unfortunately everyone is now of equal inability. When I was a kid very few girls my age tinkered with cars, but among my slightly younger friends there are a more than a few females who do: times have changed, and in a good way. Among my single female friends a number are quite adept at DIY stuff around their homes; had they been in a relationship I doubt these skills would have developed as much. Skill born of necessity? Or are they single because they enjoy their independence and don't need a guy to put up shelves? At least one of them never asks me to do anything for her, just asks me how so she can do it.

 

[rb1957]

of course there's a world of difference between being discouraged (by society's norms) from doing something and being told "no, you can't do that"

 

[EngineerErrant]

The use of gender-specific awards etc in the name of 'equality' is almost comical in its hippocracy.

Sort of. However, I'd much rather a culture that is aware of its gross inequities and provides some compensation for them (while working towards equality) than a culture that pretends to treat everyone the same superficially, despite clear discrimination.

"Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own problems." -Scott Adams

 

[rb1957]

yes, reverse discrimination is intended to reverse the skew created by generations of the previous norm.

sort of like the US "domestic" car of the year award ... as though american cars can't compete against their international rivals ... oh, wait a minute, they ...

well on another topic, how about them yankees ? (lord knows, i don't, just trying to deflect the conversation to something neutral, like sport)

 

[lacajun]

ScottyUK, since I grew up without a dad in the home, we were "forced" into doing a lot of things he would should have done. They were always interesting to me but engineering wasn't my first choice. When I talked with Mother about what I wanted to do, she gave a flat refusal and the discussion ended pretty quickly. I was a pretty messed up kid and her choices didn't seem to match anything within reach for me. We were so poor and nobodies in the family and society not much seemed w/in reach. I had very few dreams as a child and as I moved into adolescence, they became even fewer. Math and science were always easy for me so it may not, for me, be so much born of necessity. A friend is very good at math but stunk at English so she pursued English in college. She now works more with math and English in her own financial planning biz.

I like to figure out how to do things and do them. I'm single for a lot of reasons one of which is enjoying my independence. Would it be nice to be married? Yes. It's not happening so I live to the best of my abilities and enjoy my friends. An uncle told me that getting educated would reduce my marriageability. At that age, I was already familiar enough with men to have a high degree of uncertainty about my desire to marry. After all, my dad wasn't loyal to any of his six kids with two ex-wives and his third wife.

I love men but if there are too many problems or a few that are particularly outstanding, they're best kept at arm's length or greater. The men I've dated haven't worked on their problems and turn nasty to varying degrees, for no apparent reason. Life is much too short for that. If anyone treats you poorly when you are new, how will they will treat you when you're old? It pays to be slow, methodical, and have smart, experienced friends. I've learned even more principles from Bible study than friends that have protected me from mistakes, too. I've made enough mistakes to have no desire for more.

In an ideal world, there would be no need for women specific awards. Hopefully we'll get pretty close to ideal in another 10+ generations. People change slowly, if at all. Based on my experiences in the workplace, there was probably need for women specific awards.

rb1957, you make a fine distinction. Yet, for many women, the cumulative effect of discouragement becomes denial. If you have children and you discourage them enough about their ability to do math, they'll believe, at some point, they, indeed, cannot do math. I taught remedial math to a young man with that very problem and he was very bright.

Words have meaning. If you're going to speak words to or over someone, think of the a/effects they'll have on the recipient.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[TheTick]

An uncle told me that getting educated would reduce my marriageability.

Simultaneously weeding out too many losers while also raising your standards, I suppose.

 

[rb1957]

i agree that society's repeated messages are very powerful, becoming self-fullfulling prophecies. people continually told "you're a failure" will on the most part come to believe or accept that they are failures. (it's a different discussion whether people who are failing should be told that, as opposed to today's world where "no-one is allowed to fail, it'll hurt their feelings to be labelled".)

still being discouraged to do something and being prevented from doing it are two different things. in the case of the former, some very strong people (probably including yourself) will fight cityhall all the way and eventually succeed.

 

[lacajun]

TheTick, I'll have to remember that.

rb1957, agreed. I believe the truth works best. My graduate advisor at Pitt was of the same mind and detested the path management took with employees. It does nothing to develop them professionally or personally. If you don't tell someone what they're doing wrong, they never have an opportunity to grow. And we all have room for growth.

Ha! I just got a call from a female recruiter, who complimented both websites and said it's nice to know there are women out there who can do that kind of stuff.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[cranky108]

Gee... Maybe I should't make note of how things changed. And how that may have changed the face of engineering as a profession.

When I was in college there was a sort of push by instructors to push women out of the profession. I did not notice it much then, maybe because I was a geek looking for a place to be. Who else would be at the computer lab at 3AM.

Many times I have had people ask me how do you become a protection engineer. Well sorry you don't get that from books, you learn by doing.
Many people learned how a car works by having to repair them. Some of those people became engineers.
To me part of engineering should be hands on (a dumb thing for an electrical to say).

I happen to work with several good women engineers, and I do appreciate there unique viewpoints.

 

[ScottyUK]

Pamela,

Sounds like you have a few things in common with at least one very good friend. She too seems to have the knack of finding the poorer examples of my half of the species while dodging the decent ones, although she may have actually found a keeper this time.

Life sure is too short to dwell on the people and things which make you unhappy.

 

[Twoballcane]

Kudos to you Pamela for getting passed the adversities in your life. Your remarks on kids who are told that they are not good in math will eventually believe that they are not has reminded me of my seventh and eighth grade. Being an inner city child at public schools in desperate minority neighborhoods, it has never been encourage to work hard or advance one’s education. I remember days of playing cards (Spit was the card game of choice) in the front row of the class while the teacher was rolling out his teaching plan. There’re even days where my friends (or homeboys back then) and I would not even switch classes. We would hang out or play cards while the new class came in and the old class would leave. The teachers and school staff just did not care and let us be. However, I guess fortune has been good to me. My parents (who were the immigrants to this country) have always encouraged me to achieve my education, but I was just a kid who thought I had all the answers, but really did not. Somehow I took a high school entrance exam and did well and was able to get into a college bond program. However, I was still a mediocre student by the time I graduated high school. But for some reason, once I was in college, I blossomed. Maybe it was because once on campus I did not have to worry about being shot because I stood up for myself or get shanked for my sneakers.

On the topic of women in the work force or even if women can lead, here is a site that may dispel any negative stereo types:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moiraforbes/2012/08/27/the-worlds-100-most-powerful-and-connected-women/

Religion is a very dangerous method of brain washing. I am not atheist and believe there is a higher being, but I do not believe that any person or group has the right to say their opinions in God’s name or say that they speak for God.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”
"People get promoted when they provide value and when they build great relationships"

 

[lacajun]

cranky, I didn't mean anything negative. I guess I don't hold to what most people view as traditional for women. I've always thought work was work and it had to get done no matter who did it or what kind of private parts they strutted around. ;-) My grandparents were cotton farmers and they both worked hard. Grandma had scoliosis but it didn't stop her from working hard in the fields and the home. A lot has changed and most of it has been good. At least, I think so.

ScottyUK, well maybe she and I will have an opportunity sometime to compare notes and write a book together. ;-) I've been thinking about writing one for years but I need to find a sense of humor first to inject a ton of it. I hope things work out for her this time. She must be a wonderful gal.

Twoballcane, congrats to you on rising above your circumstances. Sounds like a tough environment to do much beyond survive. I'm glad you overcame the childhood obstacles and blossomed in college. That's always a wonderful thing to see. I suspect inner city kids have it much rougher than country kids. The population density alone would make inner city life tough. Fearing for your life like that would be tough.

And lest we get carried away by the powerful women...Fortune 500 Female CEOs

Though this year marks a new high for female CEOs, women still run just 3.6 percent of Fortune 500 companies.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[cranky108]

One thing to watch for in stateing numbers for positions, pay, or anything else, is be sure the person making the statment is not biased. Bad numbers in poles or statments just sours many people on the whole subject.

Also be careful of the sampleing, as the error rates in some poles can be huge because of the small samples.

The issue of the number of Female CEO may well be a topic for several decades, for several reasons. While female's are 50% of the population, clearly not as many of them are invested in a corporate climbing thing. And if you look at the number of years many CEO's have in business, and when women started entering the corporate world in large numbers, there are not that many with the same level of experence. I do agree there is some bisas in this area, but the numbers are not telling the real story. The numbers. I believe, are being presented for an agenda.

 

[TheTick]

I must have grown up in a backward place. In first grade, I was singled out with four others as we were ahead in math and reading. I was the only boy. In second grade, the group added one boy and one girl.

Things evened out a bit in high school, but the number of girls in advanced math and science was equal to or greater than the number of boys.

Somehow, I managed to grow up with the impression that girls were smarter than boys (or at least better students). This made it difficult to reconcile the chauvinist attitudes of older generations.

I do observe a gap in the fix-it, hammer-mechanic type skills, though I don't see this as a show-stopper for women demonstrating competence in technical fields. Plenty of boy-putzes without these skills, too.

 

[KENAT]

Tick, similar here. Last couple of years at high school my 'pure math' class was fairly evenly split as I recall. The applied math class was pretty even too. I think the statistics classes were female heavy - which implies the other pure math class was probably female heavy. Physics on the other hand was significantly male dominated - maybe only 20% female in my class.

Get to my aero eng class at uni and it was only about 10% female and quite a few of them dropped out in the first term.

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[ScottyUK]

Slightly off-thread but made me smile: it seems that some of the stereotyping continues - check out vpl's post and the one which resulted in it.

thread404-328774

 

[beej67]

People are trying to rationalize this decision?

It's not a difference in culture that we just don't understand, it's hatred and bigotry wrapped in the shade of "traditional religious views" (which by extension becomes "traditional cultural views") or hatred and bigotry fueld by "traditional religious/cultural views". There is no rational discussion you can have on taking away women's (or any other groups) right to partake in something that will improve their lives (and the countries as well).

It is not my place to rationalize the actions of people in other countries. As far as I'm concerned we in the United States need to get it through our heads that policing the world is not our job, and micromanaging the level of hatred and bigotry in other countries is not only impossible, it creates more problems than it solves. Yes it's terrible. Glad I don't live there.

If the Iranians don't want to live in a world of hatred and bigotry, they will eventually figure out how to throw the bigots out. In fact, I think they're well on their way to that, based on the Ahmadinnerjacket protests that sparked the Arab Spring. But they've got to figure that out on their own, and no policy we (Americans) can adopt is going to help them figure it out. In point of fact, the "fear of America" is part of what keeps their current regime in power.

There's my libertarian rant of the day.

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[cranky108]

bee, it was our perspective before WWII that we should not interfer in other countries affairs. However, we found that other countries don't have the same viewpoint.

The result is we do need to be active in other countries affairs, but maybe not to the levels we are today.

In the case of piracy on the high seas, who can argue that it dosen't affect us. So we need to be involved.
Of the two canels, panama, and suez, is it important to us if our ships can use them. Then we need to be involved.
Is poching in other countries important to us?
Is drug importation important to us?
Is sales of nucular weapons important to us?

And if wre not involved, who should be, the UN?

But I do agree we should be less involved in some things than we are.

 

[patprimmer]

The USA should only interfere when issues in other countries affect their own security, but not for reasons of economy. Oh and they should not lie about the security reasons.

Regards
Pat
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