Maybe Finland has smarter students? 31

[QCE]

Finnish Engineering Students Protest High Numbers

HELSINKI (Reuters) - Finland's 40,000 engineering students walked out of their classes Wednesday to put pressure on the government to reduce the number of engineering places.



The students argue there are too many of them competing for too few jobs now that the technology boom has ended.


The boom in the latter half of the 1990s and the rise of Finish mobile phone maker Nokia sparked a surge in the number of places for engineering students at Finland's polytechnics.


"When the (technology) bubble burst, not a single step was taken backwards. The same numbers (of engineering students) are still taken in even though there is no work for them," said Sampo Hakli, chairman of the Finnish Union of Engineering Students.


Finland's engineering student intake has tripled over the last 15 years, with roughly a third studying information technology.


The walkout, large by Finnish standards, aims for numbers to be cut by 1,000 annually for the next five years.


Graduate unemployment is perceived as being a political problem in Finland, which has a relatively high number of college educated young people.

 

[TheTick]

Why don't some of them just change majors? Walk out... keep walking... to a different school... problem solved.

They're engineering students. The solution should be apparent to their problem-solving characters.

 

[ivymike]

Why would an engineering student be studying information technology? Is that a Microsoft-certified engineering program?

 

[QCE]

How many electrical engineers in the US end up working in the "IT" department?

The "IT" departments I have seen are full of "engineers".

What do they do? I'm not sure. What does "IT" mean? I'm not sure.

The point is not the major but that these engineering students realise something is up. I thought it was interesting.

 

[CajunCenturion]

IT - Information Technology

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[QCE]

What does "Information Technology" mean then smart guy?

 

[CajunCenturion]

Are the Finnish students required to enter into engineering programs, or do they have a choice of curriculum. Are they allowed to change their major?

Information Technology is a broad umbrella and somewhat nebulous term referring to those whose primary job is to work with computers. It may be simply help-desk work or system administation, or network management. It could also be report generation, programming, database management, or software engineering.

The term used to be Data Processing.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[buzzp]

It is interesting but is Finland a socialistic type society (excuse my ignorance)? Seems they want the government to handle this problem for them. I agree with them just changing majors or just carry on with their studies and hope for the best. I mean honestly, what do they want to happen?
It sounds like the number of new students is mandated by the government. If this is the case, they have a good gripe. There is probably more to this than there appears on the surface but I dont know how their government works but I have a suspicion that the number of students is set by the government.

 

[QCE]

Are you saying the US government (or some kind of governing body setup by the government like is the case in some countries) could not set enrollment restrictions on engineering programs?

I believe in Finland university is paid for by the government. Leading to high population to university graduate ratio. I'm sure the government or university could reduce the number of students.

I think in the US the students would have to protest to the universities. In Canada a university has to be accredited by the Canadain Council of Professional Engineering to award an engineering degree. In this way the number of students graduating can easily be controlled.

I'm sure there is a way within the states that this could be achieved as it is for Doctor's , etc.

 

[JAE]

I believe the limit on Doctor's is limited not by the government, but by the AMA and the hospitals who only have so many residency positions each year....which is like saying that there are only so many intern/beginner jobs.

The medical schools also have individual limits on how many students they can accept.

In other fields in the US, the limits also are based on the school's resources, etc., and not by the US government. So a US student is totally given the responsibility to decide which major to choose, with only their own awareness of the job market to guide them...not some government agency dictating the numbers.

In Finland, it appears that a huge momentum of new students was the result of a boom in the technology sector which slowed faster than the intake of students - which may have been due to a lack of understanding on incoming Freshmen as to the change in job markets.

In the US, in the mid-80's, there was a similar "bust" in the oil industry where some universities entire geology and oil exploration departments simply dried up and vanished due to NO students entering a field that was bust....wonder why the Finn students didn't see this either.

QCE - you're right that it is an interesting subject - why they (the students) didn't respond with the market.

 

[ivymike]

just smarter, I guess.

 

[UcfSE]

Super High-performance Information Technology ;-)

 

[flamby]

You American guys expect Finnish engineering students, facing job shortage, to solve their problems themsleves by walking out of engineering. When the same universal problem of job shortage stares at you in form of outsourcing, you don't plan to reduce your wages, you expect your government to protect your jobs.

Ciao.

 

[corus]

I would doubt that the Finnish government sets the number of graduates, though they probably have a policy of having as many young people going to University as they can. The same policy applies in the UK. In general though, if the demand for places in a subject goes down then that University eventually has to close those departments, as has happened in the UK. On the other hand if a department can get as many students as possible then they will be seen to be succeeding.
If the youth of Finland (or any other country for that matter) are applying for courses where there will be no jobs at the end of it, then the problem seems to be in the students hands (or brains), not the government's.

corus

 

[samv]

It is difficult for a high school student to truly judge what the job market is like in any field. Just as it is difficult to know if they will like working in that field when they graduate - even though they may have enjoyed the coursework.

In my part of the world - much more could be done in helping high school students choose appropriate fields of study. Perhaps this is also the case in Finland.

 

[PSE]

It is nigh impossible to predict what will happen to the job market when you first enter school. The Finnish students might complain on too many graduates, not enough jobs but I do not see that as a unique situation for them or anybody else. They are more likely to be in an advantageous position for their education (should) provide them with a broad range of skills to use in any potential career. It just may not be the career you originally envisioned for yourself.

 

[davefitz]

They can easily solve the problem in Finland by converting to a US style secondary education system. Use only unqualified teachers for math and science courses, spend most free hours playing video games, and submit to all demands of the teachers unions. In 5 years, they will have no engineering students to worry about.

 

[chris9]

I consistently hear politicians and industry leaders saying there are skill shortages in engineering. You only have to compare engineering salaries with those of other professions to see that this is not the case. Maybe the students were misled about career prospects in engineering?

My salary is nowhere near what I was told it would be when I was a student!

 

[TheTick]

Remember that Finland is a small economy. The fortunes of a single enterprise like Nokia can have far-reaching effects across the entire nation.

flamby:
Funny how knee-jerk ignorant America-bashing comes off as insightful to so many. I don't know any engineers who expect the government to protect our jobs. Most of us expect our government to continue to allow the job drain to persist.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.

http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

-SolidWorks API VB programming help

 

[BobPE]

flamby:
Why would we our should we American engineers lower our wages? Engineers here are already underpaid. I would expect foreign engineers to get a boost in salary and live like kings and queens in their homelands.

You forget, we are engineers...that is a profound statement...we make everything work, from hospitals, to courthouses, to sky scrapers, to the most rural village well providing safe drinking water.

We need to be in control of our profession so that we engineers and the world can benefit.

Engineering in the states is trying to evolve into a commodity based service. It can not be permitted to evolve into a global commodity unless that is what we engineers want. A good question to ask is how do we regain control of our profession. I don't have the answer, but I will keep looking for it.

Bob