Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05 111

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04


SF Charlie
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[Mark R]

What if the car impact is the left side on the corner? Car would end up spinning off the impact, it would continue off towards the rear of the parking garage. If the car clipped the column, the column would definitely be removed and possibly spinning from the impact. Also, what about lower speeds? The rebar in bad condition could shear from lower speeds. What if the original construction is so terrible that this column was just waiting for an impact?

Why are you so convinced a car knocked the building down? Nobody else is really supporting that theory on this forum or anyplace else that I've seen. Sure it's a possibility as is an ocean liner running into the building but it's certainly not a logical cost is a problem based on all the other information and photos available

 

[NOLAscience]

home address

I only listed the street name, and this info is available in a thread on Reddit, and it is public record, which is where the Redditor got it. It's no big deal.

 

[NOLAscience]

Nobody else is really supporting that theory on this forum or anyplace else that I've seen.

I support this theory, to the extent that it may be a possibility, and I don't care about any other forums or YouTubers. The possibility cannot yet be ruled out, and we will continue to look for evidence that shows that it happened. If we find none, ever, and we find a plausible explanation for what might have been the proximal cause of the collapse, we will come to the conclusion that a vehicle impact was unlikely to be the cause. However, we accept that, as in many plane crashes, experts continue to debate causes long after reports have been filed away.

 

[NOLAscience]

if electric service is a least 200A

Key word "if" ^^

 

[MaudSTL]

For your convenience, here is a swimlane diagram that includes the witness interviews of:
[ul]
[li]Eric and Tamara Zion (went to stay at a hotel)[/li]
[li]Sara, Gabe, and Chani Nir (111)[/li]
[li]Nicolas Vazquez and Gimena Accardi (parked immediately before the garage collapse)[/li]
[li]Adriana Sarmiento and Roberto Castillero
 (video of the garage rubble)[/li]
[/ul]

The sources are linked in the right column.

**************

Edited. Please scroll down for v2.

 

[NOLAscience]

I prefer looking at the un-enhanced photo to compare to the enhanced version. It's also good to go back to the video that is posted in "Miami Beach, Champlain ..., Part 02". You can get a better idea what you are looking at as the camera moves and the light changes slightly on the objects in the garage.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMdasA62E/

I wish someone could edit this video and just show the garage opening. Remove all the rest and just play the video with all of the motion removed.

Here's my screenshot. Sorry about the TikTok "Play" button. The image is a bit clearer in the attached downloadable file in my next post.

 

[NOLAscience]

Link to the slightly better quality image.

 

[Js5180]

Does anyone know if the cars that were towed away were the ones parked next to the pool, in the area that became the ramp for the equipment? It looks to me like at some point they removed the pool slab in that area, and made it into a ramp. I'm theorizing the cars we saw towed away were those parked directly under it, and in the way of the ramp they needed to build.

 

[NOLAscience]

You are right on track. It is NOT good practice to stop one column bar and start another without a lap bar or a coupling/splice collar.

Is there any chance that this is a brittle failure of the rebar? I can't imagine that the contractor did not lap splice the rebar at all.

 

[AutisticBez]

Maud,

Do we know where all of these people were parking? It would discredit my theory. Which is important. If stuff was occurring in the building, it was happening around 12:30. There are people coming and going around this time. I'm sure they would have seen a column damaged right? Unit 111 says 12:30, work sounds like it's coming from above. So, this fits in with the roof. But, if it was coming from below, might she not still think it was coming from above? Given that sound would reverberate up the columns around her apartment? You probably won't hear sounds from the parking garage right?

Where exactly do the parking spots line up with the apartments?

 

[Mark R]

Is there any chance that this is a brittle failure of the rebar? I can't imagine that the contractor did not lap splice the rebar at all.

I was thinking the same thing, I've never seen rebar brittle failure but I'm nowhere near saltwater. It seems a little strange that it would be installed without laps however assuming there was any kind of inspection done during the construction. As mentioned earlier it would be nice to see the as built drawings as well as the shop drawings for the rebar.

 

[jbourne8]

NOLAscience, posting where someone lives is called doxing, and it can be a very big deal btw. Depending on where you live, it can even be illegal these days. All it takes is copying down someones public info and spreading it around.. if they get harassed due to it, or if they happen to work for the government (way more people do than you'd think these days), etc.. you can run into a lot of problems. Plus, where he lives in NYC is completely irrelevant to the structure of the building.

Keep in mind too that the only testimonies we've heard are the people who've talked to reporters, and most likely there were other people there that only spoke to police, or no one at all. I'll take a look at the video tonight and see if I can edit it down, but I can't be in this forum if this turns into a witch hunt or if we continue to dox people.. it's way too close to illegal activities that I can't be a part of.

 

[Vance Wiley]

As has been discussed, almost anything is possible, but a brittle failure of the one rebar seems remote in this case because the concrete in the zone remains relatively intact and does not demonstrate effects of sufficient flexure to fail the rebar.
As I look closer, it appears the left bar tucks under the right bar and may extend some distance into the right section of concrete, and that would be expected.
This part of the detail may be OK. A bit of chipping could confirm this.

 

[emtv]

The timeline of Nicolas Vazquez and Gimena Accardi is rather interesting, They seem to be the very last ones to have gone through the parking garage before it collapsed. If my basic Spanish serves me right, they said they parked normally, heard some noise but thought nothing of it/couldn't make out what it was, got into the elevator which stopped on the ground level (an automatic stop on the way up), there, they saw some dust and frantic people who said the deck had collapsed (possibly the people from 111?), heard more noises and now car alarms going off, so they all dashed across the street. Once there they heard a thunderous noise like they'd never heard before, and down came the building.

If memory serves me right, on some TV show the journo said they were staying in 308 and their parking spot was "on the left" of the unit (left relative to what exactly? I don't know). Thus I wonder if the first noise they heard but didn't recognize was already the deck collapsing into the level below, but as it happened it was hidden from their line of sight (say, if the elevator block was in-between), or if it was another noise from the building, much like the undefined knocking some people had heard some time earlier, but when they stopped at the ground floor, dust was already flying. I'm having a hard time piecing together all the timelines right now (from the various survivor testimonies and videos) and making sense of the different noises and their respective times.

Let me grab the link s if I can find them again...

 

[emtv]

Alright so on this video it's the TV presenter that relates what the Argentine couple said and adds the details about the unit and parking spot:

https://youtu.be/wDCBKRWfQTI

This here is the message directly from the guy himself instead:

https://youtu.be/yThHXikBav0

If anyone has a better graap of Spanish that what I could string together in the previous message, please go right ahead...

 

[spsalso]

Quote (julo)
if electric service is a least 200A

Key word "if" ^^

As I stated earlier, each unit had a 125A 208V service.

And you really should try not to make up quotes and/or poster's usernames. If you are that sloppy with something that can be checked, it implies the same for all your reasoning.


spsalso

 

[Vance Wiley]

I apologize for being off in the weeds a bit but this has haunted me for 35 years. I had nothing to do with this event but "Who Woulda Thought?"
The use of stainless steel to support a ceiling over an indoor pool sounds like a good idea, right? Not so much.

https://corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-SCC/swimming.htm

To bring this into focus with the present topic, it is common to spec stainless expansion bolts when exposed to weather. Is that a good idea in a seaside environment?

If this is too far astray just trash it. I will understand.
Thanks,
Vance

 

[LionelHutz]

That column picture with the rebar ends - is that at a floor connection and not the middle of the column?

As for the roof collapse/falling theories. Why didn't the presumably motion activated camera recording start sooner and possibly catch some of the roof falling? If the roof failed and caused the pool deck damage in that tiktok video then that camera should have been triggered by that failure and been recording long before the building started to collapse.

 

[Vance Wiley]

I think it is the point where a floor slab intersected the column. The small rebar which is bent over would have extended into something and that supports the slab idea. There is no paint on the column so it was behind wallboard somewhere if it was a column. It could have been a transfer beam - but I assume that would have been painted but that may not be correct.
It would be good to hold final determinations until the member is identified.

 

[BlakeStr]

2 Thoughts. If the guy spent the night in a hotel because he hit a column, it was to avoid a DWI. If a roof AC unit fell, it may have been unbolted by the roofers.