Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08 20

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07

SF Charlie
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[Optical98]

MDPD work being done offsite looks like the same NIST site. Now with all the cars there...much of it looks like a landfill.
Obviously still gathering owner personal effects etc.

https://youtu.be/vJkLBwmCbwA

 

[Vance Wiley]

Happy to hear you did not work for the guy who glued the sprinkler heads to the ceiling in Monterey/Pacific Grove - without any piping .

 

[AusG]

The steel is all breaking out of the concrete. I suppose they will weigh it at the end and compare the total with the plans. Would we take bets on the outcome?

 

[Demented]

This is an interesting repair Circa 2003.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Demented]

Do'h. 2 months before Hurricane Andrew came by and ripped our roofs off.


"Removal of 8" - 12" cap on top slab where planters are in front of condo. dowel in 4" into concrete #5 steel at 16" on center and install 3 #5 steel rod container in new cap (solid concrete. 3 areas are involved (TBtranscribed). Patch plates 18', 21', and 27" are length of concrete caps involved. "

At this point, I'm left wondering how much of this building was original concrete and steel besides the deep interior. Debris photos just got a whole whole lot more complicated.

Edit: This permit was issued. 7/30/1992. I wonder if work began prior to Andrew. Subsidence between 1993 and 1999 was it?
This would have been a mandatory evacuation zone, so I doubt anyone would have been on site to witness. Wind loads of that storm with sections of the deck missing would be an interesting simulation.

 

[AusG]

$2,450 doesn't buy a proper drawing it seems. Is that a robot I see in there?

 

[Lizard7709]

Looking through the documents I found this of interest. They had in 1996 done a bunch of crack repair in the garage area. Approximately 500 linear feet of repair.

I noticed the planter repair demented posted and was wondering which planter it was that they did the repair for.

 

[Demented]

@AusG

I think that's supposed to be the top of a column. 3 16" #5 steel inserted 4" into the column with the 12" remaining up. I see no indication in the drawing to bend them at a 90* angle to extend into the new slab surface, because potato drawing. A planter was going to cover it anyway so who cares if rebar sticks up.

Likely the repair and rebar we see in at least one of the deck core slabs, under the planter, possibly what we see in the tiktok video. That little area.

Today's South FL construction forecast is
#Fridayhighday
Work out at 3:30 so all the crews can get to the bank to cash their checks before the 9 to 5 desk people get out.

Inspectors, hawk eyes today. I cut it twice but it's still to short.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Lizard7709]

I also saw this of interest. Waterproofing, paver installation and garage repair in 1996.

Looking through all the documents it is really overwhelming. They have provided so much information. It seems like the building needed near constant maintenance. As a result I have decided that beach condos are a bad investment and I will exclude the thought of ever owning one when it comes time for me to plan for retirement.

 

[gonefishing2]

Look closely at the hand drawn sketch, on the permit application, for the "305 (Stainless ?) Steel Rods Continuous", Not three # 5 rebars as best as I can read......

Smooth Rod, and not rebar???

 

[JStructsteel]

As others have told you repeatedly, red paint denotes the presence or potential for human remains. Most likely that a cadaver dog had hit on this area of the pile.

None of your the items identified through your theoretical squinting have visible paint on them.

The 8 days I was there, red paint was never used for that reason.

 

[gonefishing2]

8-12 inch cap on top of slab (structural slab?). How does this crew know where 8-12" topping ends and structural slab begins?? Without core sample?

Why 8-12" cap on top of structural elevated slab in the first place???

 

[gonefishing2]

The lipstick is coming off this pig...... Sorry no pig emoji to choose from, so I made next best choice.... for Dan Mullen...



PS Why would a developer pay $100 Million for this Site?

Answer, because he gets in and gets out quickly, and 10 years is his Statue of Limitations.........and they abolish each unique LLC after each project, so legally that entity does Not exist.

Edit: And now days Developers just create a unique LLC for each project to limit liability for those 10 years!

Also ask you self why most Apartment/Condo Complexes are built with Goodman Equipment, but the maintenance crew always changes to another brand when replacing the OEM?

Part of the answer: Goodman will sell direct to contractor on massive buys like multi-family housing as very attractive prices..... But when you go to replace one a time, the price is the same for Goodman as say some of the other competition.....

I will just let you decide what the rest of the equation is....

EDIT: And I should not fail to mention, developer abolishes Unique LLC at end of project, so LLC no longer exists to sue for what little assets were ever in LLC in first place, and the complex now has a new owner or record who is NOT the developer......

 

[SwinnyGG]

Unless you (the contractor) are not ready when the inspector/engineer arrives, or the work is incorrect and the inspector/ engineer has to come back again, or the concrete pump broke and the pour took 8 hours longer than planned, or the contractor can't read the plan and submits 87 RFI's about information that's already in the construction documents, or the contractor missed a bunch of dowels and needs recommendations on how to correct the problem (ASAP of course), or the contractor wants to change the design and the engineer has to spend hours on conference calls and reengineering the project

All of those scenarios are vastly different than what I'm getting at it, and I'm fairly certain you know that.

The entire point of having engineers inspect along with contractors and third parties is to combat the fact that a lot of the things we inspect are complicated to construct, difficult to verify, and critical details matter. Defense in depth, by having multiple parties get eyes on critical assemblies, are the only way things get correctly built.

You can complain all you want about contractors who 'can't read the plan' but ultimately unless every engineer goes to complete 3D models of everything (which would be a ridiculous standard) there are always going to be details that are not trivial to interpret and install correctly. It's a fact of life when you're drawing complicated things on flat sheets of paper.

The point is, chalking this up to a shitty contractor gets no one anywhere. Everyone involved has significant culpability (contractor, engineer, city, third part inspectors, owner).

 

[CE3527]

Thermopile - I think this is a topping they added to the flat structural slab to introduce slope towards the pool deck drains. The problem with that in addition to the added load, is it left a cold joint between the sloped topping slab and flat structural slab, which would be a nice place for water to infiltrate towards, stay, and cause damage to the structural slab. As far as removal goes, they would have to take care but since there's this natural joint there it should be very evident when you get to the structural slab and the weaker bond "should" allow the topping slab to separate from the structural without damaging the structural slab. A better practice would have been to slope the structural slab, which is common to see on parking garages constructed today.

 

[gonefishing2]

Thanks CE3527! Thanks makes sense, but it also tells me that we are doing a single sided slope over the whole elevated slab, thus starting thick at say Collins and getting thiner towards the pool? I Don't see how a single gradual slope over that large of area is wise? Seems like Morabito's approach like you would on a roof, with multiple slopes to central drains very often is far better approach to remove as much water as fast as possible to prevent soaking into structural layer?

 

[Demented]

@thermopile
Good eye dude.

Yes, 5/8" 305 and 308L rods, smooth, get used like that. Here are our extras.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[gonefishing2]

I also have to ask, when did construction switch from cast iron drain pipes to PVC? Memory seems to think 1980 or so was beginning of transition?

The reason I ask, is that in a salt water environment, cast iron or galvanized pipe drains would not fair well, and would be subject to leaks. In my world galvanized pipe was used for plumbing drains, except for cast iron sewers. I am sure residential transitioned faster than commercial to PVC.

A lot of houses had galvanized water pipes under ground from street and inside houses. The useful life was way less than 40 years in a non salt water environment. So I can image a lot less in Florida on the reclaimed Ocean.

Interesting side note hear for Sparky's, is that the galvanized plumbing pipe was used for earth ground back in the day. When Galvanized under ground water pipe from street to house was replaced with PVC, very few folks were savvy enough to realize they just lost their earth ground......

And in lots of cases, the earth ground now followed the black iron gas line to earth ground. Guess what happens at corrugated flex connections to gas lines, during lightning storms??? If not properly grounded.

 

[gonefishing2]

Demented, In my world away from Oceans and Salt Water, we would never won't to give up the deformed bar gripping strength in concrete to use stainless smooth rod? Nor the expense or loss of strength per pound of dead weight...

 

[Demented]

@Thermopile

You referring to the condo game John Goodman plays with his DC's down here? Wouldn't surprise me.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge