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Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09 139

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SFCharlie

SFCharlie

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Apr 27, 2018
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MaudSTL

The arguments against field - we need to keep it streamlined so there aren't multiple repeated comments and sock puppets are not adding on.... etc

Wait, you've set it up so that we add the arguments to our own theory?

Also, I don't know if witness interviews can stand as proven evidence, but could be used to substantiate a theory?

Maybe make witness stmts it's own column.
 
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Demented (Industrial) 25 Jul 21 19:1 said:
Edit: Sandblasting? Still curious how instructions this detailed for concrete repair got into the roof anchor install. Nail 2 birds with one stone?
Click to expand...

The engineer probably made one set of plans for everything and then were later asked to divide the project up into different bid packages, that's how non-relevant specifications end up where they are not needed. It's also a good way to end up with overlaps or scope gaps. The intent though in this case was that the engineer probably wanted the contractor to perform concrete repairs (if necessary) wherever they had exposed the concrete deck prior to the anchor installation.
 
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Could be two pallets side by side, with some rolls taken off the far one.


spsalso
 
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What is the evidence that the large tar buggy was not staged on the roof. It amounts to proving a negative but... where would it be given the complaints about odor and placed away from the air handler? The reason I say this is in the tictok image I had thought there is what looks like a tow bar even before that image of the large buggy was posted late in the recovery operation. Would this help to satisfy Occam's razor for anyone? Someone knows where that thing was staged.
 
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MarkBoB2 said:
I counted 7 in each direction.
Click to expand...

Will you number them for us?

F0DC7D18-D1F8-4A7B-B43D-94D2E2B6C88C_frhzjl.jpg
 
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Demented said:
As there is a lot of stuff located within PDF files on the Surfside website, perhaps a column where links to supporting documents can be included? Or would that fall best under the "Possible Evidence Not Yet Proven" columns?
Click to expand...

Could we use the Notes column for those links as a means to keep it simple?
 
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Optical98 said:
The arguments against field - we need to keep it streamlined so there aren't multiple repeated comments and sock puppets are not adding on.... etc

Wait, you've set it up so that we add the arguments to our own theory?

Also, I don't know if witness interviews can stand as proven evidence, but could be used to substantiate a theory?

Maybe make witness stmts it's own column.
Click to expand...

We may get multiples in this first pass…we can consolidate later on if we see the need to do so.

Yes, each entry is standalone because we are not all going to edit the spreadsheet directly. In a group like this, where people don’t have actual identities, I think it’s too risky to collaborate in that way because we would have no way to prevent inappropriate editing. So if you enter a theory that you think has zero Arguments Against, you can enter None in that column. Someone may disagree with you, and state the same theory but have lots of comments in the Arguments Against column. When we sort, we will be able to see both.

I am not worried about the witness statements. I entered them to test whether the form would write correctly to the spreadsheet, and it did.
 
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Notes field sounds good to me for links.

@Zebraso
Logic is the only evidence it seems.
I'm sure the people who knew where it was located have already spoken to the authorities. Inspector Jim McGuinness of all people would have known, as per his original statements, “There was no inordinate amount of equipment or materials or anything on the roof that caught my building official’s eye that would make me alarmed as to this place collapsing,”. To me that indicates he saw what was up there.
However a lot could have changed in the 14h between the collapse and his field inspection. I'm still curious was to why he's still not raised any flag over the scope of the permitted work being done as quickly as it had been, for having just gotten the permit that day.

Someone, somewhere, has to have aerial photos showing the roof in the week leading up to the collapse.
 
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Photo source FTF 2 US&R.
The 8th floor slab has failed differently, possibly with some hinging. Just an observation. Would this give us anymore insight into what we see with the floor above 711 shifting before the full collapse?
This would also be roughly where the family from 904 reported falling to the floor below and staying there briefly (long enough to crawl) before this floor gave away.

What would make this floor fail like this compared to the rest? I cannot wrap my head around it.

We have the 8th and 7th floor photos of the non collapsed section here.
Edit:
 
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Maybe the 8th floor slab had a wee bit less rebar at its top in this area.


spsalso
 
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Roof_area_b97hne.jpg


Partial roof area #1 15,496 and #2 1,711 sq.ft = 17,207 sq. ft. for the gray areas. (from preliminary-review-plans-for-40-year-re-certification) called for CCW-500 hot-applied liquid waterproofing membrane.

Two layers, I estimate 15,275lbs for 125-mil coating, plus 10,992lbs for 90-mil, plus 200lbs of felt. Total around 28,267lbs. That's 584 blocks or just over 9 pallets. Plus a little for the felt/fabric for those two roof areas:
CCW-500 Reinforcing Fabric 24lbs/roll good for 2,000 sq. ft. 9 rolls x 24lbs = 206lbs.
Durapax tar-saturated 43 rolls X 60lbs = 2,581 lbs. I'm not sure if this is the old roof material.

The mass of the required roofing materials is significant, stored on the roof and on site somewhere?

I can't see them constantly bring the crane on site to lift more materials to the roof. It was a rush job to start late, rainy season coming.

In the debris it looked like a smaller kettle trailer (single axle?), maybe 150-200 gal which would weigh 1,700-2,300lbs of materials plus fuel and the trailer's mass.
 
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@Optical98. I think we can see the location of the tar trailer here. Middle of frame, at the back. It does not look like it to me, but lost pixles being lost pixles, Not sure what sense it would make being in this location other than it having been moved from it's found location in the cleanup.

Could this also be the approximate size of a counterbalance weight some have speculated about? Edit: Job boxes. Why do I always forget job boxes. They're big, square, sturdy, and often tan, orange, or brown. Lockable, heavy, and full of tools. Perhaps even the external supply tank for the generator, but that would be amazing for the fuel tank to survive.

Video at time. 3:58.

@Lucky555
Cranes were not constantly scheduled. So roofing materials would have been initially stored on the roof, or carried to the roof by hand/dolly via the elevator if stored at lower levels. I'm curious if concrete and epoxy were stored up there as well for the repair work that was OK'd to go without permission so long as it wasn't so bad it needed inspection/engineering.

Edit: To spark thought. *shrugs*
 
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Demented (Industrial) said:
other than it having been moved from it's found location in the cleanup
Click to expand...

And NIST has those images I assume. Good job on finding that video. I was looking for that.

Edit: The thing with that particular item is it does not match up to well with the photo of the tar trailer that was seen placed with the smashed car. Not saying it can't be a tar trailer or a job box.
 
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Spartan5, here is my count of tarpaper rolls. I preferred to use my figure instead of the one you provided because mine showed them in a perspective view instead of a straight top down view.

Tarpaper_with_bag_cm0mp0.png


I can count 30 rolls that I can see, with 25 of them on the two left-hand skids. I assumed that the two right-hand skids carried approximately the same number. Some are covered with the bag and some have been used already. I found out that the symmetry was more like 8x6 rolls rather than 7x7 rolls.
 
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