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Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12 60

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SFCharlie

SFCharlie

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Apr 27, 2018
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A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11

SF Charlie
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Jeff Ostroff said:
I will tell you today I got video outside Champlain Towers North of the view that tourists video was shot, but mine is in the daylight, the gate was open and we can see all the columns, where they should be, and it will put to rest all arguments people have on the tourist video as to which columns are where and what is missing.
Click to expand...

Well you can't put to rest all arguments until you after have heard all arguments,(and you know I have one).
So far nobody has said much about the fact that the collapse shown in the tic-tok video has taken out the lights beyond the ramp. I have been in parking garages with rows of lights off and it is freaky how things like columns just disappear when there are no lights shining on them.
Is there any chance you could get some video of a garage or other room with rows of columns and show the effect of turning off lights towards the back of the room?
My point is that I believe all the columns are there but we can't see them with the lighting that is available. This also makes it impossible to see how much damage they may or may not have.

Red Corona 4 Sep 21 10:20 said:
Your whole post
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Your post got a star from me. Excellent logic.

AutisticBez said:
Were any bodies recovered from inside cars?
40km/h is enough to take out pool deck column 12x8 inch.
Click to expand...

All bodies or remains have been recovered and identified.
I have read reports stating that all victims were located where they were expected to be.
No extra bodies or remains have been found.

The smallest column listed for the basement level is 12x16, not 12x8. I even tried to scale off the prints to confirm this.
Perhaps this mystery car had a flux capacitor installed.




 
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The “missing column” theory is a bit wearisome to me as well. And I was disappointed to see it in the NYT piece.

Is the idea is that something hit it with enough force to shear it flush at both the top and bottom and knocked it completely away?

Or did it get laid over at 90° right at the base leaving it even with, and parallel to the ground? Shearing all of that rebar cleanly at the ceiling.

Those columns have proven to be like box of spaghetti noodles as far as the rebar goes, but all of that has disappeared too.

If the column has been hit (or otherwise damaged) I would have expected to see a buckled or stoved mess where it was. Not nothingness.
 
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Spartan5 said:
If the column has been hit (or otherwise damaged) I would have expected to see a buckled or stoved mess where it was.
Click to expand...

Exactly right.
It must be there, either still standing, leaning, or in the debris pile, but I suspect we just can't see it because of the lighting. And no video from CTN taken in the daytime with all the garage lights on will convince me otherwise.



 
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Jeff Ostroff said:
Very well done Maud.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Jeff! I am a big fan of your overlays, because they reduce confusion and help develop a common understanding of what is where.
 
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Well why is the place a crime scenes? Politics? Something is going on.
The only structural scenario I see now is the beams holding up the planters torn chunks of concrete from the main step beam which held up the building.
I have not found any sections showing how the BM A's were tied into the step beam.
One plan shows a 2-6" beam and another a 1-6" beam. Also there was a large load on that beam from a weight room.
The BM A's also tied directly in to the columns K, L M and probably damaged them similar to the damage on the other South east punch shear beams.
 
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ChiefinspectorJ said:
Well why is the place a crime scenes?
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Miami-Dade’s economy depends in great part on real estate. They need to preserve the belief that local properties are safe to buy, sell, and live in. To keep their real estate market viable, they are highly motivated to assure that the collapse of the CTS is blamed on anything other than environment, location, and building age. After all, there are many other buildings just like CTS all over Miami-Dade, and residents are rightly concerned that their building has the potential to be another CTS.

IMO, the County hopes to build a case for criminal negligence by the Town of Surfside and/or the CTS Condo Board. The fact that the Town of Surfside immediately engaged a very highly regarded forensic engineer put Miami-Dade at a disadvantage, because Kilsheimer will focus on a thorough, correct analysis whether the County likes it or not. So they want to keep Kilsheimer out of there so they can buy time to try to build a criminal negligence case that will take the focus away from the realities of aging concrete and steel structures in a highly corrosive environment on a barrier island threatened with imminent sea level rise.

That’s the way I have been looking at it, but I am not local.
 
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"...highly motivated to assure that the collapse of the CTS is blamed on anything other than environment, location, and building age. After all, there are many other buildings just like CTS all over Miami-Dade, and residents are rightly concerned that their building has the potential to be another CTS."

While presumably trying VERY hard to stay away from the concept of Shoddy Construction (see: "...many other buildings just like CTS..."





spsalso
 
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If they have broken the law, and through their negligence deaths were cause... This still hasn't played out in the courts... we don't even have an 'official' report...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
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"How could the town be criminally liable for this?"

Negligent manslaughter (Florida): the killing of another person through gross negligence.

The condo board is a tough sell. They're just a bunch of clueless non-professionals. But the city: a person paid to act in a professional manner who......

And if that person could be shown to have been acting in a manner accepted by the city,......


spsalso
 
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Again… how was the town negligent Hypothetically even?

spsalso said:
But the city: a person paid to act in a professional manner who......
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The city? Or the licensed professional structural engineering firm that was paid $500,000 to assess the condition of the building, analyze the as-built conditions, identify structural deficiencies, and design repairs?
 
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OK, I just uploaded my video to You Tube minutes ago, but here is a screenshot I made from my video, showing something interesting, that will open up more questions.

I noticed while filming the Champlain Towers South debris site yesterday that all the column rebars were pretty much intact coming out of the garage floor, mostly the rebar is vertical. But look at this photo where I pointed to column M11.1, the column most of us think brought the building down when the pool deck collapsed against this column. This is the column underneath that planter, 20 feet outside the building wall. Look how bent and twisted Column M11.1 is, and all the damage on it, hardly anything left. Everything always seems to point to this column.

site_updates_rhzj4z.png
 
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If they knowing issued a permit for work that was non-compliant or unsafe, for a start and there are likely several other issues... did they receive any financial benefit from the 'sloppy' work... best let the lawyers sort it out; the possibilities make my head hurt.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
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There was a screenshot posted earlier from after the clearance that shows M11.1's bottom rebar looking similar to all the others. If I get bored enough I'll scroll back through the threads to find it.

I suspect that since then they've cut the rebar to take it away for analysis because they think there's something about that column too. Which most of us here agree with, I think, but it's not as simple as that pic makes out.
 
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Column M11.1 is connected underground to that leaning Millennium Tower building in San Fransisco. The more they tug and pull on M11.1, the more the Millennium Tower building leans.
 
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Column_27-28_Close_View_qzjqth.jpg
Column_27-28_View_From_Afar_dofmvw.jpg


Jeff Ostroff...better images of the column in question. The way it's curved, looks like something ran into it.
 
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Jeff Ostroff (Electrical)5 Sep 21 13:24 said:
Column M11.1 is connected underground to that leaning Millennium Tower building in San Fransisco(sp). The more they tug and pull on M11.1, the more the Millennium Tower building leans.
Click to expand...
First Jeff, I'm looking forward to watching your video.
I wish that M11.1 rebar was the cause of the millennium tower sinking, but alas, they cut the rebar and the tower is still going down, down under the 22 inch limit they set...
We have photos of the basement when it was first emptied, before the excavator tore out the columns. let see what M11.1 looked like then. Thanks!

SF Charlie
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JDATL said:
The way it's curved, looks like something ran into it.
Click to expand...

I tend to think that more closely resembles a column that buckled and subsequently had 12 stories worth of building materials crash down on it.
 
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