Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13 44

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[SFCharlie]

Problem is Charlie they have a pay wall to read their stories, so I can't read it.

Please click like and subscribe to NYT's channel


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[waross]

Forgive me for not going back over hundreds of posts.
Has there been an official determination of the initial event or trigger that started the collapse?

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[SFCharlie]

Forgive me for not going back over hundreds of posts.
Has there been an official determination of the initial event or trigger that started the collapse?

NO


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[SFCharlie]

Is “Here Are 11 Serious Flaws Discovered In the Surfside Tower” available online?

It is available to print subscribers. It's a two page spread, only one page per post. Here's page 1.


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[SFCharlie]

Is “Here Are 11 Serious Flaws Discovered In the Surfside Tower” available online?
Here's page 2

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[waross]

Hi Charlie. I hope that no means "No Official Word" on the trigger and not "No Forgiveness". grin.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[MaudSTL]

Speaking of triggers and collapse sequence, the NYT infographic implies a lot stronger collapse sequence than the Witness Timeline supports. So I think it’s a good idea to take the NYT’s lede and numbering with a big grain of salt.

For example, the first surviving witnesses who saw that the deck collapse as it happened actually saw it from the lobby. From their perspective in the lobby, the parking deck had collapsed, which corresponds to No. 5 on the NYT infographic. Just because the NYT leads with the palm trees and planters on the pool deck (Nos. 1 through 4) doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where the deck collapse actually initiated.

In other words, at this time, based on witness statements, we don’t know the sequence in which the deck collapsed.

 

[Nukeman948]

I'm pretty sure the numbering the NYT used was just intended to link the captions to their respective locations on the building image and were not intended to be used as a sequence of events.

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

 

[MaudSTL]

What is likely to give the readers a false impression is this lede (and the four items that follow it

It’s just not an accurate claim in relation to the Witness Timeline.

 

[Nukeman948]

You did an excellent job on the timeline, however, the pool deck is the first thing to fall that was confirmed by eyewitness accounts as a collapse. The earlier sounds could be dismissed as construction noises or the building creaking and failing. I fully understand your point but there is still room for errors either way as far as what actually fell first.

Edit to add: The numbers seem to be random as they are listing the "...11 Serious Flaws Discovered...". If they were trying to keep the flaws in order of the sequence they occurred, Design flaws should be listed before building flaws, followed by maintenance issues like tree roots and water damage.

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

 

[Jeff Ostroff]

Thanks for posting the 2 files @SFcharlie. I figure the pool deck collapsed in phases, first what Sara Nir saw at the above-ground parking deck, her only vantage point, then maybe it cascaded toward the building from there, or maybe it all fell at once before the building did. I am miffed that NYT obviously used stuff from my July videos without giving me credit. For example, I clearly showed in my videos the difference in removed palm trees from May to December 2017 and showed how I stepped through all the annual sat photos to determine that, and I showed a very similar drawing of the drain slope on the pool deck.

Although, they left out what else I showed, how the 2" of sand under the pavers holds a lot of water at 8.3 pounds per gallon, not figured by the architect or engineer, who could not forsee a 1996 addition of planters and 20-foot palm trees. Furthermore, I showed how forklifts would bring in pallets of pavers and likely set them down, causing more stress to the pool deck, and possible latent fractures. Remember their article was published the first week of September after many of us were already discussing these items.

 

[MaudSTL]

Thank you. Yes, that is my point. Eyewitnesses Sarah Nir and Shamoka Furman saw the parking deck collapse from the lobby. They did not realize that the pool deck had collapsed because they did not see it from the lobby. After they ran out of the lobby door, Gabe Nir and Nicolas Vazquez realized that the parking deck had collapsed. Neither of them realized at that time that the pool deck had collapsed, as they were too busy trying to escape from the building as it rumbled and shifted. Only after the collapse, when she accessed the pool deck to help Ileana Monteagudo (611) and others escape from the garage level, did Shamoka Furman realize the pool deck had collapsed. >>>>>Edit: This is why Shamoka’s 911 calls all report that the garage had collapse.

We don’t know where the deck collapsed first. We only know from the witness statements that the parking deck collapse was witnessed from the lobby, and that the pool deck collapse was not witnessed until after it had already collapsed, by the late Cassie Stratton in 410. >>>>>Edit: The later 911 call that reports the pool deck collapse is from the surviving part of the building, where the caller could not have seen the garage deck. So that too was well after the fact and implies no deck collapse sequence.

This is why I object to the NYT lede. There is no eyewitness account of the pool deck in the process of collapsing. There is no eyewitness account to help establish a deck collapse sequence.

>>>>>Edit:

Has there been an official determination of the initial event or trigger that started the collapse?

From the witness statement perspective, there are clues about where the building began to collapse, but no mention of a specific triggering event. As Chani Nir (111) stated, “banging” sounds were occurring when she got home at 11 PM. We don’t know when they actually started, and we don’t know if these sounds were also heard in the lobby or elsewhere, higher in the building.

As Sarah Nir (111) and Shamoka Furman (lobby) stated, at 1:10 AM there was a loud “smash” that was heard in both 111 and the lobby. If something fell in the garage rather than in a floor above, for example, it was not mentioned by Nicolas Vazquez, who arrived in the garage with his wife Gimena Accardi around that time.

So we have no eyewitness accounts of a triggering event per se. Prior to the building collapse at 1:22 AM, we only know from witness statements that:
[ol 1]
[li]The late Elena Blasser (1211) reported unusual loud cracking sounds occurred at 3-4:00 AM[/li]
[li]The building was already shifting its load at 11 PM[/li]
[li]Something fell at 1:10 AM that could be heard on the first floor[/li]
[li]The parking deck collapsed at ~1:15 AM[/li]
[li]From Adriana Sarmiento’s 1:18 AM video, there was debris and possibly Column M11.1 was damaged or collapsed in the garage[/li]
[li]From reports of the late Cassie Stratton’s (410) call just before 1:22 AM, that the pool deck had collapsed[/li]
[/ol]

 

[Nukeman948]

I am miffed that NYT obviously used stuff from my July videos without giving me credit. For example, I clearly showed in my videos the difference in removed palm trees...

When many different people are all investigating the same thing, they are likely to find some of the same problems even if they never see each other's work. Evidence of palm trees being added and removed as well as planters could be found by anyone. You have shown no proof that the NYT people even know you exist. Members of this board could be equally miffed about you using their work since the palm trees and planters were being discussed here (and possibly at NYT) before your video was posted. I don't see any of our members accusing you of spying on us.

You are miffed that you think they stole some of your "stuff" but then you seem miffed they didn't steal your waterlogged sand idea? Yeah, that's a great argument. It almost proves they didn't know about your work or it wasn't worth stealing.

Pallet jacks can be used to move pavers without fork trucks and trees can be cut down without boom lifts. Real engineers get paid to figure out how to get the job done without causing damage to the building. If you have any proof that heavy equipment was actually used on the pool deck, you should post the evidence.


Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

 

[Nukeman948]

Eyewitnesses
Parking deck
Pool deck
Potato
Potahto

Well, it looks like you are using different terms than I am. To me it is all the "same slab", supported by columns and beams and separated by a row of planters. You are calling the parking part of the porte cochère section the "parking deck" and the rest the "pool deck". We have no way of knowing from the witness statements if they make those same distinctions or not. Perhaps the NYT is also calling it all the same deck and not trying to imply it progressed in a certain direction.

We also don't know if witnesses could see or understand the extent of the collapse from their vantage point, or if it was obscured by planters or dust in the air or they are simply misinterpreting what they are seeing due to the stress of the situation.

People using different terms and phrases because of regional dialect or English being a second language or any other reason, always cause me to take their statements "with a grain of salt", just like I do with all news stories and Youtube videos. Eyewitnesses are often proven wrong when new facts emerge.

Here's a video from the same year CTS was built. I hope it helps.
Link

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

 

[MaudSTL]

With all due respect, you’re plowing over the same ground we’ve been over before.

As I have said before, the fight or flight response triggers tunnel vision, which is why it is important to know where witnesses were when they saw/heard what they reported. As I have also said before, witnesses are the stars of their own movie, and we can only know what they state, filtered through their own confirmation biases and communication abilities.

People who read/hear witness statements are also stars in their own movies. And so they filter witness statements through their own confirmation biases, agendas, interests, etc. and develop an interpretation that may or may not not accurately reflect what the witness actually stated. As I have previously pointed out here, witness statements and interpretations of witness statements are indeed famously unreliable. Yet all we can do is view them accurately and take them into consideration with a grain of salt. I once got excused from a voir dire for pointing all this out to a prosecuting attorney.

My only goal here is to assure that an accurate record of what the witnesses actually stated is maintained, despite how a publication, a Twitter user, some guy using a pseudonym on an Internet forum, or anyone else spins it. Otherwise the interpretative narrative becomes the substitute for the actual statements, as just happened with the NYT infographic.

 

[SFCharlie]

Hi Everyone,
I'm also on a blog about the Amtrak derailment. Maybe because we are all old fogies, but we treat each other with respect, for example it would be Mr. Nukeman.
Please let us all be more civil with each other.
Thank you all.
Respectfully and Gratefully,

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[Nukeman948]

Sometimes when a lot of "fertilizer" gets dumped on the ground it needs to get "plowed in" before it can do any good.
Interpret that as you wish.

Stay safe and make sure to hit that subscribe button Folks. You don't want to miss out on all the cool deals that pay my bills.

 

[SFCharlie]

A history of Palm Trees on this tread:

Quote (Sym P. le) - It's not clear whether these planters were original or a refit.
Reviewing the aerials, previously, the planters had palm trees in them since at least 1999. That was until 2018 when the trees were removed.

RE: Column in Planter and Planters above Reinforced Concrete, in General
(The planters had palm trees from at least 2005 to 2018, when the plant scheme underwent a major revision.)

I don’t think anyone has mentioned the “plumbing” repairs done in 2017 to address leaking pipes in the garage, at least some of which had been invaded by roots from the entirely unwaterproofed planters (NBC Miami). This may coincide with the disappearance of the palm trees and the failed crack repairs.

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[SFCharlie]

Sometimes when a lot of "fertilizer" gets dumped on the ground it needs to get "plowed in" before it can do any good.

Yes, I agree, Mr. Nukeman


SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[Demented]

Pallet jacks can be used to move pavers without fork trucks and trees can be cut down without boom lifts. Real engineers get paid to figure out how to get the job done without causing damage to the building. If you have any proof that heavy equipment was actually used on the pool deck, you should post the evidence.

I don't think any proof exists, nor does it exist of JLG lifts being used on the pool deck either during renovation work, but I've seen that thrown around too.

As far as I am aware, the only use of heavy equipment near the pool deck was the little baby front loader and the backhoe on the access road for the 87 park construction. This generated some concerns and complaints from residents of CTS in regards to the structural integrity of the wall near the above ground parking and near the M column line, but that's it.




Unrelated to all of that, I need some help with the placement of beams 33, 34, and 35 on the main slab. It's location looks incorrect to me. I'm asking from the perspective of this location.
There's a chance I have the beam numbers incorrect here which could explain my confusion.
I think the column with the blue X236 on it is Q8 (yellow bottom skinny column, parking spot 19), to it's left would be O.1 8 (This numbering is stupid. Wide column yellow bottom parking spot 19), to the left would be O8 (red bottom, parking spot 17) which beam 34 sat ontop. If that's correct, what is that sticking up out of the ground between O8 and O9.1?

I think I'm lost. Just trying to orientate myself.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge