Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 13 44

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 12


SF Charlie
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[MaudSTL]

…relocation often includes some allowance for relocation expenses paid buy the landlord.

Condo owners are not renters. The lawyer is proposing new laws to force property owners out of the property they own. This would set quite a precedent.

 

[SFCharlie]

The lawyer is proposing new laws to force property owners out of the property they own. This would set quite a precedent.

Yes! I understand. I would think that a fair law would require the common area owner to compensate the condo owners at something like the fair market value, or if the common area owner has another condo building with available condos, provide condo owners with comprable condos.
An allowance for moving expenses should also be provided.


SF Charlie
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[Demented]

Iirc the congestion issue arose not because it would by itself threaten the building but that crowded joints at the lower floors might present the contractor's people with excuses to leave out or mis-position some of the slab reinforcing at the column joints.

That could be a very valid point. I still find it super odd that one of the repairs involved 3 #5 90* hooks to refasten the column to the pool deck. Could have just been no room for 4.

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[Vance Wiley]

Would not a Conco Owner's insurance policy provide moving expenses and cost of alternate housing for a period of repairs?
EDIT:
As a conco office owner the overall condo association policy covers the building shell and grounds and common areas and loss of rents, etc.

 

[Spartan5]

If I am not mistaken, water has been spotted wicking it's way up rebar at the slab/column connections. Several columns also having fully rusted through rebar at the base. Not sure which columns, but it does seem to be situated around crowded columns.

 

[Vance Wiley]

Could you please show me where this detail is? Sounds interesting and I missed it.
Thank you,

 

[Vance Wiley]

The side of that column looks like it has been patched with some sticky repair patch.
The proper repair of rusted rebar and cracked concrete is to remove any loose concrete, clean rebar, coat rebar with coal tar epoxy, and patch concrete with hi adhesion high strength polymer modified concrete mortar. Proper prep is square edges, minimum depths, etc. Can't tell if the rebar was cleaned and coated. The bar we see is likely the bottom of the long column bar in the column section and it laps a dowel from below.
Thanks for the pic.

 

[AusG]

I can't help but be amused that Kilsheimers recent comments were quoted in the World Socialist Web Site. They, at least, should understand large slabs of grey concrete.

 

[MaudSTL]

… Kilsheimers recent comments were quoted in the World Socialist Web Site.

I was delighted to see that! Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide. I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story.

 

[SFCharlie]

...Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. ...trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide.

I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story ALSO.

Miami-Dade is trying to hide:
The very scary truth that this building just fell down after 40 years, without any particular trigger.
That lots of condos in Florida were built under that same ethical environment. That CTS is not unique.


SF Charlie
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[Spartan5]

I was delighted to see that! Kilsheimer has been sidelined in a manner that makes Miami-Dade appear to be absolutely corrupt. Nobody from the six conglomerates that own 90% of US media is trying to figure out what Miami-Dade is trying to hide. I’m glad an independent is stepping up to cover this piece of the story.

Miami-Dade? You must mean NIST? What would Kilsheimer be doing or have done that they have not?

What’s concerning to me is that this building fell down under the watch of a consulting firm that was being paid $500,000 to assess, analyze, and ensure the structural integrity of the building.

 

[Spartan5]

High-rise condominiums line the south Florida coastline one after another in tight succession. Asked if any of them may be in danger, Kilsheimer replied, “I must have been asked that question a thousand times. Until I can begin to investigate, I will not be able to answer it.”

What happened at CTS has no bearing on that question. He says as much himself:

“Nobody can say that the concrete was the wrong strength or deteriorated. Nobody can say that the reinforcing steel was the wrong strength or had deteriorated. Nobody can say that the number of rebar that were in the deck was inadequate. Nobody can say the placement of the rebar in the deck was inadequate.” He concluded by plainly explaining, “Nobody can say the thicknesses of slabs were inadequate because no one has been able to sample and test any of that stuff.”

That’s true at every one of the buildings he’s been asked about too until someone assessed each of those things.

 

[SFCharlie]

What’s concerning to me is that this building fell down under the watch of a consulting firm that was being paid $500,000 to assess, analyze, and ensure the structural integrity of the building.

correct The firm did warn that the structural damage was increasing exponentially, but several have commented that there was no obvious evidence of immediate collapse. (Very Scary!

 

[MaudSTL]

Miami-Dade?

Miami-Dade is using the crime scene designation as the reason to bar Kilsheimer from working side by side with NIST. NIST is not preventing his participation, Miami-Dade is.

What does Miami-Dade gain by barring Kilsheimer in this unusual way? They know NIST will take years to publish a report, by which time nobody will care anymore (except this group, which will be on part 120.) Keeping Kilsheimer out will not protect Morabito, the Town of Surfside, the CTS Condo Board, or the people who collapsed the roof and backed their tar buggy through Column M11.1.

Apparently Miami-Dade believes that letting the Town of Surfside’s consulting engineer do his job, and possibly doing it faster than NIST does theirs, could complicate their ability to achieve their objectives, whatever they may be. Whatever their motivation, it makes them look like they are trying to hide something, and therefore costs them credibility.

 

[spsalso]

It IS odd that Miami-Dade does not appear to be able to articulate a crime related to the crime scene.

I can understand, in the first few days, that there surely does LOOK like there could be a crime. But you're not sure what. But after several weeks of careful cogitation, wouldn't you think their Crack Legal Minds might have found SOME crime that might have happened that they could describe. And share that, using real words.

"We're still investigating to see IF there was a crime." is always appealing. But isn't that SO much like pulling a kid over in his car and holding him for hours to "investigate"?

After awhile, it starts to smell.

What it does look like is that there could be an investigation by the Feds, prompted by one guy or gal who just won't leave things alone.


It's also curious that Miami-Dade couldn't escort Kilsheimer around the site to his heart's content. NO, you may not pick that up. YES, of course you can look at that. By now, it's awfully hard to believe he could mess up the crime scene, considering. WHAT would he have to DO?


spsalso

 

[Spartan5]

Miami-Dade is using the crime scene designation as the reason to bar Kilsheimer from working side by side with NIST. NIST is not preventing his participation, Miami-Dade is.

SNIP

Apparently Miami-Dade believes that letting the Town of Surfside’s consulting engineer do his job, and possibly doing it faster than NIST does theirs, could complicate their ability to achieve their objectives, whatever they may be. Whatever their motivation, it makes them look like they are trying to hide something, and therefore costs them credibility.

If NIST wanted Kilsheimer to participate, all they’d have to do is ask him. And if Kilsheimer has offered his services to assist NIST with their investigation and he’s still on the outside looking in, then… you tell me.

You really think NIST wants another team crawling around, moving and taking whatever they see fit?

The NIST report will be THE Report.

 

[Spartan5]

It's also curious that Miami-Dade couldn't escort Kilsheimer around the site to his heart's content. NO, you may not pick that up. YES, of course you can look at that. By now, it's awfully hard to believe he could mess up the crime scene, considering. WHAT would he have to DO?

Why limit it to Kilsheimer? What if the board wanted to hire someone too? Or just let Morabito Consultants do a little more core drilling here and there. Or lawyers… they have engineers too. Maybe some former resident watched a PowerTube or five and decided what we really need to be doing is uncovering the wayward bungie-buggies? Where does it end?

 

[spsalso]

Where does it end?

Where Mr. Kilsheimer refuses to take direction. "Look, but do not touch." Is it that difficult?

On consideration, you might have a point that the "list" might keep growing until me and my dog show up.

So you figure "crime scene" really means "how about nobody?".

S'pose it works.


spsalso

 

[Seppe]

Were sites at the collapse of structures like the WTC, Murrah Building, Minnesota I-35 bridge, and FIU bridge open to numerous investigative entities?

I feel like these events and others like them have always been the "tip of the spear" jurisdiction of agencies like NIST and NTSB, with various independent subconsultants then retained as required to contribute to a unified effort in the face of difficult, complicated circumstances.

For example, NIST states in its WTC report that it complemented in-house expertise with private sector technical experts. NTSB retained Wiss Janney Elstner to assist with the I-35 bridge effort. And so on and so forth.

That Kilsheimer is apparently on the outside looking in shouldn't be terribly surprising. What would be the rationale for his Surfside engagement to supersede NIST? What if NIST actually considered engaging his firm, or perhaps he offered to be a part of NIST's effort, and the terms simply didn't work? It happens. Hell as much as I myself would love to be able to assist and contribute to the effort, what would be my basis for complaining if I were denied?

For CTS, NIST and its network of related agencies and outside subconsultants constitutes a vast compilation of manpower and resources. Undoubtedly there are differing opinions, theories, models, and data born therein that must be vetted through. We're talking a fleet of licensed engineers and related professionals, each of whom bear the burden of maintaining standard of care in the face of a very high profile and complex structural disaster.

Any notion that there is some grand conspiracy just doesn't resonate with me. Instead I see a unified, organized, and measured agency response, with a pretty transparent chain of command.

If Kilsheimer was a cook that NIST thought they needed with them in the kitchen, he'd be there. His being left on the proverbial bench doesn't mean that strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

 

[AutisticBez]

How about your allowed to live in a condo that may fall down in the future, but you cannot sell it or rent it? Maybe when major issues are found, either you fix them or you end up in such a state where you can't sell and can't earn money from it. Either you spend the money fixing or suffer such a financial state. Then if your building falls over, you really only have yourself to blame.