Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

Register Log in
  • Congratulations KootK on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse 151

Status
Not open for further replies.
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Sort by date Sort by votes
gusmurr: Based on that picture I dont think those columns had capitals or drops (based on bot reinforcement location). Look at where the paint ends, it's to high if there were capitals that sheared off.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Man that far column looks precarious, like it’s already sheared but is just barely hanging on.

Construction PE (KY)
Bridge Rehab, Coatings, Structural Repair
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
My speculation (at this time) is also that things initiated in the underground parking level or subgrade. It looks to my eye like the debris pile in the vicinity of the portion which collapsed first appears to be a 'shorter pile' than the portion of the structure which collapsed second. If true, that may also support a sinkhole or other similar subgrade issue concentrated under the area of initial collapse.

Wow - my thoughts are with all those affected by this. Truly horrifying.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
That column slab connection looks distinctly lacking in reinforcement, both top and bottom, for a relatively thin flat slab spanning 6 to 8m.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You're right about that.

Headline: "Collapsed Miami beach condo tower hadn't been certified since 1981 when it was built and has been 'sinking into the ground since the NINETIES' "

Article: " Miami Dade building code dictates that buildings have to be re-certified every 40 years so the building was due to be recertified for the first time this year. "

Still a tabloid.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Engr1888 said:
The structure stood for 40 yrs before collapse, so I think the structure was adequate.
Click to expand...

You can’t assume that a structure standing for decades means that it’s structurally adequate. Inadequate structures often survive for significant amounts of time.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Standing for 40 years is no guarantee of structural adequacy, or future performance.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
FoxSE14, I agree the debris pile in the area that fell first is significantly smaller. I image there is only one parking level below grade due to proximity to the ocean. It appears a large portion of the debris from the first failure is now below grade. It's interesting (and terrifying) that the second piece stood for a good 5 seconds after the initial collapse.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I once looked at a 1910 bridge that had some distress (scouring) and eventually realized that the bridge foundation did not rest on rock (about another 3 feet). This bridge was designed for very heavy rail load. But everyone said is was really strong until they shut it down for a while.

The rescuers have about 100 hours to get the trapped people out. There might be some space between the pancaked floors that will allow them to survive. Really hope so.

ex USAR Task Force 7 Sacramento. Structural Specialist.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The collapse looks like it started next to the elevator shaft. At first I thought, maybe they overloaded the roof with roofing materials but the failure was bottom up. Still have to wonder where construction supplies were stored.

The weekend after the Loma Prieta Earthquake a team from our company was working the Oakland area. Signed in, at one Red Tagged building 'transient hotel', walked up 7 flights of stairs to a landing where we could step out onto a low roof. Standing there looking up, there was floor after floor of giant 'X' patterned shear crack between the windows. The lowest 'x' shear crack, I could put my arm through. I reached in and grabbed a hunk of concrete, with my gloved hand and squeezed it, until it crumbled in my hand. There was no modulus left, completely friable. I can't say whether it was carbonation or if the sand used at the time was just not washed well enough. The building had smooth rebar, so early 1900s. Could not believe there were people sitting on the mattresses on the floor in a couple units, wondering what they should do.

I am a bit puzzled by the report about the building settling 2mm a year. One news station state the Professor indicated the land was settling. That has been my impression since looking at Sweetwater across from the FIU Pedestrian Bridge Collapse. There is an ongoing effort to remediate flooding in Sweetwater. All the old USACE work has reached capacity with runoff from surface streets. The problem stated was that the land was settling and also the Okefenokee Swamp watershed was getting larger. Bigger and more pumps were needed. Sweetwater is a good ways inland.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I don't see any tie beams. Corrosion?? I once saw a building pancake because of a single stirrup failure in a single column. However, it was only a three story apartment building and only the first floor pancaked. It was also as a result of an earthquake of 5.5 on the Richter scale with significant vertical shocks. No earthquake here.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
spinspecdrt said:
It appears a large portion of the debris from the first failure is now below grade.
Click to expand...
...my thoughts exactly. Continued speculation for sure, but...that initial collapse debris could even extend below the base of the building within some sink hole whose size is most certainly hard to discern right now. Again, my heart goes out to those people.

Related: has anyone else noticed the LACK of structural engineers weighing in among the media outlets? I admit I have not viewed any of this on television today, so perhaps I missed one or two, but I'm reading article after article with 'expert opinions' from[ul]
[li]local architects 'who've never seen this in 30 years of living and doing business in S. Florida',[/li]
[li]some owner of a local home builder (very applicable to mid/high-rise concrete construction over underground parking built along the coast),[/li]
[li]an attorney who represented someone on a trip & fall case in the building who is 'very familiar with that building'...[/li]
[/ul] ...WHERE are the SEs and PEs of Florida?? I hate to say it, but this is the kind of event where the public is thirsting for our knowledge and they don't even know it...talk about an opportunity to elevate the profession. Perhaps we as a field need to have public speaking and media training to draw us away from our desks and in front of the cameras in cases like these. Meanwhile, I have to get back to my condition assessment report, so someone else please do it. [peace] (end rant)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
FoxSE14,
Or perhaps the structural engineers consider that it is irresponsible to wildly speculate, as some of those other 'experts' are doing. The press will tag an expert label on anyone who has ever held a hammer.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Very brief observations based on what is known so far:

1. @FoxSE14 - Hopefully local PE's are staying cautious and don't want to speculate. Although I did hear an FIU professor answer a few (not so great) questions of a local reporter.
2. There was one level of underground parking - this is actually not uncommon in this area - land is way too valuable to waste any, esp. when above ground gives you ocean view and there are height restrictions of the oceanside properties.
3. My guess would be that the columns holding the ground floor (the lobby/pool deck level) did not coincide 100% with the columns above.
4. Collapse looked, as others have pointed out, in the center of the building. (which ironically appears to be slightly shorter than the oceanside end)
5. As others have stated above: could be a 'simple' as a column being taken down in the parking, maybe the overloading of materials happened at the lobby/pool deck area rather than at the roof? I've heard random statements about a possible crane aiding with the ongoing roof work, but have not seen any sign of one or that being verified. It would be sad to find out the failure of ONE column would cause this, so maybe a transfer beam or punching shear failure would make more sense? Although with little redundancy if the floors above don't match the basement columns then this def could be a weak point.

It's hard to imagine a tragedy like this happening with no warning signs. Expecting the typical "stacking of mistakes" result.

God help the people still trapped and guide the responders to find them ASAP.

To whoever asked above why there is no recovery - there is! Miami Dade PD tweeted out a video showing them working through the flooded basement - this is no easy task to try to find Survivors and not compromise the debris pile
You can find the pictometry historical aerial views for free on the Miami Dade Property Appraiser site
-- sorry for long post, this has def hit way to close to home
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I agree with FoxSE14, it should be SEs/PEs commenting on this and not other "experts".

I got about 5 phone calls this morning from friends and family asking my opinion on the collapse. I have no idea what happened, but I loved having the discussion with them.

As long as those engineers talking to the public state that their opinions are speculation, it would be better for our profession overall.



S&T
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

SFCharlie
  • Question
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 19 27
4 5 6
Replies
116
Views
3K
lexpatrie
lexpatrie
Jordonlaw
  • Locked
  • Question
Building Collapse in South Africa
Replies
4
Views
217
Andries
Andries
AusG
  • Locked
  • Question
Bronx Apartment building partial collapse 18
2 3 4
Replies
61
Views
562
dik
dik
drawoh
  • Locked
  • Question
Building Collapse in Toronto Kensington
Replies
2
Views
151
LionelHutz
LionelHutz
SFCharlie
  • Locked
  • Question
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 18 30
12 13 14
Replies
275
Views
2K
SFCharlie
SFCharlie

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor

Back
Top Bottom