Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part XII 34

[zeusfaber]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.

Part I
thread815-436595: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part I

Part II
thread815-436699: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part II

Part III
thread815-436802: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part III

Part IV
thread815-436924: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part IV

Part V
thread815-437029: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part V

Part VI
thread815-438451: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part VI

Part VII
thread815-438966: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part VII

Part VIII
thread815-440072: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part VIII

Part IX
thread815-451175: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part IX

Part X
thread815-454618: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part X

Part XI
thread815-454998: Miami Pedestrian Bridge, Part XI

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[Earth314159]

So having 10 bars in member 11 like I think was intended (Section A-A Drawing B-39) would have increased the capacity by 61 kips and the member would still lack capacity from a code standpoint.
It certainly had design capacity for loads when the collapse developed.
Again, thank you for running the numbers.

I just check the hand book. You have multiply the steel component by 0.8 as well as the concrete component. This reduces the compression resistance component from the steel. It doesn't make much difference but I thought I point it out.

 

[charliealphabravo]

I think this is what Louis Berger is clinging too.

The settlement terms are confidential but I can't imagine the hold-out is due to so subtle a point. It is more likely that the level of responsibility assigned is seen as too great. Again, we don't know all the details, but accepting responsibility for the complete loss of the structure would be one thing. Accepting responsibility for the loss of life is another. The bridge gave plenty of warning to those responsible for the construction and there is little reason why anyone had to die that can be related a plans checker (my opinion). Even if there was a lack of expected reserve capacity in the structure, it is so far beyond reasonable that the EOR and contractor exposed the public to such risk given the signs of distress and on-going post tensioning activities.

 

[Earth314159]

The settlement terms are confidential but I can't imagine the hold-out is due to so subtle a point.

You may be right. I am no lawyer but legal questions are often not about common sense. In most cases that I have seen or heard about from colleagues, it doesn't mater how little the responsibility lies on a consultant, they become responsible for the damages. What is shocking, they can become responsible for the full amount of the damages if the other parties are not able to pay damages due to bankruptcy or dissolution of a corporation. If you are 10% responsible, you can be responsible for 100% of the damages. Each country is different. I know that there has been some movement to change the laws but I don't know how successful the changes have been.

In my view, Louis Berger was negligent but did that negligence lead to this particular failure? I think that is the real legal question.

We have to study engineering and the law where I come from. Is this the same in the US? Our professional exam includes legal questions. Do the exams in the US include legal questions?

 

[Vance Wiley]

- -

I had a course in legal stuff - but it did not prepare me for things like this --from June

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/23/nyregion/record...[/URL] 28 workers killed, over $5 million in fines, U S Dept of Labor involved. Short article here, worth a minute.]

 

[jrs_87]

Vance is referring to this:

https://www.engineering.com/Library...leID/168/articleType/ArticleView/Default.aspx

 

[jrs_87]

Interesting lift slab case from 1956. Checkout figure 4-18 to see process of restoring plumb.

https://eng-resources.uncc.edu/fail...ure-cases/cleveland-lift-slab-parking-garage/

 

[Vance Wiley]

Thank you for that link. With a construction process like that described, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Settingsun]

Also not a lawyer. I think being 10% responsible for the problem but potentially 100% liable for the bill is called 'joint and several liability', which Florida got rid of before this bridge collapse. It's a nice idea but apparently doesn't work as intended for various reasons.

 

[Phil1934]

Abolished after a Disney World lawsuit where the plaintiff was injured in November 1971 at the grand prix attraction at Walt Disney World, when her fiancé rammed from the rear the vehicle which she was driving. The jury found the plaintiff 14% at fault, her fiancé 85% at fault, and Disney 1% at fault. Under the doctrine of Joint and Several Liability, Disney was 86% liable and ordered to compensate the plaintiff.

 

[FortyYearsExperience]

No comments over the last ten days. Is that correct ?

 

[MikeW7]

I think everybody is taking a break before the NTSB report comes out. The only recent news is a Tony Pipitone report about the creative book keeping used in MCM's bankruptcy.

 

[JStephen]

I just assumed the dead horse had been adequately flogged for the time being.

 

[SFCharlie]

Officials Remain Tight Lipped on New Bridge Investigation
Apparently someone wants some info for the lawsuit?

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[WinelandV]

I just assumed the dead horse had been adequately flogged for the time being.

 

[RAB678]

A Florida court document recently submitted, stated.

"Internet activities, social media, forums etc... are acceptable as potential evidence.
Any sites pertaining to FIU bridge collapse could be included for reference.
Disclosure of facts true, false or subjective in clause introduced in the forthcoming legal discussions
will be accepted and challenged as deemed necessary.
Those submitting errant facts or those that are trying to sway judgement will be held accountable.
Formally announced this is a class action lawsuit.
Companies, websites and individuals submitting pictures, ideas, comments can be subpoenaed as witnesses"

WTF?!?!?
Does this include comments here?

 

[hokie66]

Sounds like that is what it means. But I think the subpoenas would be very selectively issued.

 

[charliealphabravo]

I'm guessing the class action must be the civil suit not the criminal. As such I shouldn't be surprised that the criteria for evidence is much broader.

And I agree with hokie66. I'd say the eng-tips discussion over the last 12 episodes is on their top ten list of sources for "ideas, comments, facts, both true, false, and subjective".

 

[MikeW7]

"...their top ten list of sources for "ideas, comments, facts, both true, false, and subjective"

This guy might also be in the top ten: [URL unfurl="true"]https://www.youtube.com/user/etiennekai/playlists[/url]

 

[Earth314159]

This guy might also be in the top ten:

https://www.youtube.com/user/etiennekai/playlists

They could subpoena this guy if they wanted an irrelevant incoherent rant form a conspiracy nut who is a wannabe structural engineer that lacks the ability to understand the fundamentals.

 

[MikeW7]

...wannabe structural engineer...

But he's mentioned on page 27 of the OSHA report. Doesn't that make him a recognized expert?

P.S. - According to his YouTube "About" he is being harrassed and stalked by Eng-Tips, so be careful.