New start material strenght calculation for operating horn from crashed plane. Part 2 4

[RedSnake]

Can anyone help me check if this calculation works so far?
There are so many conversions between different units ..
The calculation is made by a free software but I assume that their calculation models are correct.

My own assumption is that the elevator is heavier at the front edge as there are hinges made of MIL 1430 N and since the lever and its attachment also are , there are also steel details on the other side and the rest is aluminum.
I have chosen to see it as a simple bar to begin with.

And the calculation is made to check which load the fixed joint must withstand for the elevator's own weight.

I intend to present it in steps so if I got something wrong I can adjust it before the next step.
If it's okay with you people?

Best regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[LittleInch]

Well apparently he was already at 90% of trim nose down, or at least that's how they found it.

I don't know how jump pilots react when the PAX all get out rather suddenly, but you would imagine it suddenly dives a bit so maybe they hold a bit of nose down on the run in so they can release it and not follow their ex pax all the way down... Just thinking out loud here.

I think an experienced jump pilot in one of these things could tell you a lot more than we ever can.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I would suspect rather large control movements followed by frantic trimming.

 

[RedSnake]

To be exact, the stabilizer was tuned 65% up in the leading edge (nose down) 1.3 degress of 2.0 ..

Best regard Anna


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

At 4 miles with 3 deg glide we would be at 1200 feet above touchdown.

So if you were 2000 m (6560 feet)(1,1 miles) from the runway would you be at an altitude of about 100 m (304 feet)?? Sounds a little low but?
Am I getting this right?

But when I'm at work, have an office on the 2nd floor, it feels like I could next take on the pitch if I stretched out my hand when they come in for landing from the north.

Best regards Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its from the touchdown point not the runway end. As we go over the start of the runway we are about 50ft normally.

The minimums on a cat 1 landing are 200ft And 550 meters visual distance and we are doing 125 to 140 kts. low viz approach cat II 130 ft 400 meters the pilot lands. CAT III its 50ft and 200 meters and the pane lands itself. .

These are just ruff numbers with the distance but its seconds between seeing the ground and touching down.

its not as scary as it sounds.

 

[RedSnake]

Okey tanks!

I have traveled a lot, so sometimes you hardly feel that you have landed, sometimes it feels like the plane fell straight down the last meter

Regarding scary, how many degress would you bank a commercial aircraft in a 90 degree turn?
And what is the max?

BR Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

30 deg below 15000ft and 15 degrees above that. But that does reduce when your coming into land for about 1000ft down to under 10 deg's.

As for the max the planes can easy do 60 degs. 75 degrees and we start running out of power. But that's over 2 G and would be classed as an incident

If you go over 32-37 degs most proper airlines you would be getting an email off the flight safety department requesting details. And if the explanation didn't match the flight conditions they would dig deeper. Over 37 you would be invited to an interview with the safety office and chief pilot, if you hadn't reported it happening at the time and the reasons and left it for the flight data monitoring team to pick up.

It does sometimes happen but rarely, if you hit wake vortex or other strong turbulence. But its pretty easy to pick that up off the data plots. If its for that sort of reason then its a none issue. If its you were doing a visual approach in nice weather and did it then that's a different story.

 

[RedSnake]

I'm pretty sure that once in a real hard snowstorm when we got home, the plane came in from the south at the airport and had probably flown quite straight towards the wind from Stockholm and up to Umeå along the coast.
When he would turn up towards the airport, I am pretty sure that he made a turn with at least a 40 degree bank angle.
It looked like and felt like at least 60 or more.
I sat so that I saw the wings.
The wind was at 90 degrees to the plane and the underside of the wings before he went out of the turn.
The wings flapped like on a bird.
Some started crying and were almost hysterical.
I thought he probably knows what he is doing
But I am not sure ;-)

BR A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

They will know what they are doing. 30 degs near the ground involves rather a lot of ground in the pax windows so people think its more than it actually is.

Different Companys and pilots have there own rules. These days I would be sneeking it in with 15 degrees bank onto finals doing a visual at about 6.5 miles out at 2000ft. !0 years ago I would have been doing 30 degrees at 500ft in the Jetstream. I get more of a kick these days when I hear comments like "lovely smooth flight" "that was a boring day" coming from the cabin. Some times on the west coast of Scotland in winter you had no other option than to get a firm grip on the aircraft and throw smoothness out the window.

 

[RedSnake]

The only time I heard anyone talk about an incident, but I think it does not count as such.
Telling it in English does not really do it justice, since the pilot was Norwegian ;-) there is a tradition between Sweden and Norway when it comes to "funny stories"
I guesse you can figure out who is the "stupid" ones, on both sides.
Then they have a special language melody even when they speak Swedish, so it becomes fun just because of it. .
It is difficult to take them seriously.

However they came before landing on ARN and just when they are going to put the plane down, the pilot pulls everything to max and takes off again.
After a minute, the captain comes on the comradion and says.
-The second pilot is a bit new! So let's give him a second chance.

He sade that it made people in the plane smile, so I guess he hade the right tactics, making people feel that he hade controll and that everything was okey.

BR Anna

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

60 degrees of bank 150 Ft above sea level in something the size and approximate shape of a Comet was probably more entertaining for us than for the people in the nearby fishing boats.

A.

 

[RedSnake]

Hello zeusfaber welcome back

It sounds like a notorious fighter pilot in Sweden who was called Svarte Petter (Black Peter) the black sheep.
Once when he came back from a reconnaissance flight, he hade a lot of photos on a Russian boat where all the crew members threw themselves or lay down on the boat floor ... not really according to the book

How good are you on reading radar pictures?

Best regard A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

How good are you on reading radar pictures? Rubbish, to tell you the truth.

A.

 

[RedSnake]

Okey :-(
I am not sure if you are a fighter pilot or not, but if you are I suppose you do what you can to stay away from the radar. ;-)

Best regard Anna


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

Much bigger than a fighter and I was working in the back. Low level for engineering reasons rather than tactical. Long time ago now (just as well - that sort of thing is a young man's game).

A.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Low level due to technical reasons...


Sounds like you were down the back of a shack and the climb performance was defined by the curvature of the earth and 100's of feet per hour

 

[RedSnake]

These are the recalculations SHK did for speed.
But they have not shown any figures.
QNH3 1014 hPa, Flight level 136 - wind, 352 degrees, 30 knots, temperature -10 ° C
GS → correction for wind = TAS → correction for standard atmosphere = CAS → correction for position error = IAS.

This the one I made.
How big a difference can there be between TAS and IAS?
And is the following correct?

Best regard Anna



“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

http://www.hochwarth.com/misc/AviationCalculator.html

Use that.

It can get quite large the higher you go due to density change.

 

[RedSnake]

Thanks
If you where to do a climb in that airplane aprox 275 feet how would you do it ?
Stabilazer , Elvetor or both ??
Is one minute normal ?

Best regards A

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[zeusfaber]

How big a difference can there be between TAS and IAS?

Quite a significant one. This is not about measurement error; TAS and IAS measure fundamentally different things.

True Air speed is genuinely a measure of how fast you are travelling through the air.

Indicated Air Speed is something else altogether, though loosely (and predictably) related to speed. IAS is actually a measure of the aerodynamic forces being generated on a vehicle as it moves through the air. You measure the difference between local atmospheric pressure (detected in nicely protected and hopefully unpainted static ports on the side of the aircraft) and stagnation pressure (detected at the bottom of a hole pointing straight into the airflow - typically on the end of a "pitot" probe stuck far enough out the front to see into clean air), then express that pressure difference in terms of the true airspeed that would give the same pressure difference if you were flying at sea level in an International Standard Atmosphere.

Sounds weird - but it's easy to measure and so many important things (drag, stall points, structural loads.....) vary with True Air Speed, Altitude and Temperature in very much the same way that IAS does that, for all purposes except navigation, it's the most useful (on small aircraft, often the only) "speed" indication in the cockpit.

Assuming that the -10C is a ground temperature, then 82 Kt TAS is going to work out at around 70 KIAS. If it was -10C at altitude, you're looking at more like 66 KIAS (See

https://aerotoolbox.com/airspeed-conversions/)

(Edit: Cross-posted again)

A.