Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
Pipeline Pressure Loss 14
- Thread starter hacksaw
- Start date
Björn Lund says this is not a earthquake that is recorded, the registrations doesn't fit for that, but it does fit a explosion, they usually gets a warning from the Swedish military when they have military exercises so they have many recordings of explosions to compare with, he say it must have been more then 100 kg TNT or dynamite going off.
The Russians blow up their own pipeline case closed. ;-)
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
The Russians blow up their own pipeline case closed. ;-)
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Pipelines can rupture explosively without any outside assistance. Registering an explosion on a seismometer doesn't mean it was blown up. 3 events on 2 pipelines IS suspicious, however.
It must have been put on the outside of the pipe by divers, the readings from the seismologic equipment wouldn't have been so symmetric (going outwards in circles with the same speed at all directions) if would have been on the inside.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
I don't know if one can make that assumption. Huguyen's principle seems relevant here. A wave from a small opening propagates equally in all directions.
Yes, but just in the direction in which the hole is.
Maybe not the best drawing in the world, but you get the picture.
Left small hole , right explosion on the outside.
As he explained it, the pressure wave goes against the bottom of the sea bed and then spreads out, if it would have been a hole it must have been on the underside of the pipe both times, not sure how lightly that is when you have 380 degrees to "choose" from.
And I guess it wouldn't have traveled all the way up to the north of Sweden where the last measure point is.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Maybe not the best drawing in the world, but you get the picture.
Left small hole , right explosion on the outside.
As he explained it, the pressure wave goes against the bottom of the sea bed and then spreads out, if it would have been a hole it must have been on the underside of the pipe both times, not sure how lightly that is when you have 380 degrees to "choose" from.
And I guess it wouldn't have traveled all the way up to the north of Sweden where the last measure point is.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
I don't buy it. The pipe is laying on the sea bed so it's going to transfer energy to the sea bed. Even if the venting is upwards, there is a shockwave that will travel downwards into the sea bed. With the sea bed so close to the pipe, there will be a great deal of energy transfered. The energy decreases with the square of the distance. Sound also travels faster and more efficiently in the sea bed, especially if it is rocky.
Underwater gas pipeline explosion seismology isn't a well studied subject. I would be leery of any "expert" speculation only a few hours after the event.
Underwater gas pipeline explosion seismology isn't a well studied subject. I would be leery of any "expert" speculation only a few hours after the event.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
I know this is a double post (I posted it in the Ukraine thread in the Pub) but since it's relevant, I'm posting it here as well.
The AP just published this story, which seems to conclude that it was not accidental, at least the Dane's seem to think that way:
Danish PM says govt views gas leaks as ‘deliberate actions’
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
The AP just published this story, which seems to conclude that it was not accidental, at least the Dane's seem to think that way:
Danish PM says govt views gas leaks as ‘deliberate actions’
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
Shock waves travel in a spherical form in all directions until reflected back by any objects in its path and, in this case, the mud line, the water's surface and delineated water density changes at a thermoclines. This relatively shallow water, well mixed by wind and currents may not have a pronounced thermocline. Hence the bulk of the wave power radiates away from the source in a circular pattern, most of which remains in the water. (I had to say something. My father was a sonarman in WWII Pacific Fleet)
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
The Baltic sea isn't that deep, where the pipes are damaged it is between 50 m and 100 m closer to 60 m, so you could dive that without a sub only with a boat if you like.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein
Diving from a boat would require some special equipment and take some time on station. It would probably have been observed. Dropping a timed depth charge of course would be much faster and harder to detect, but you'd have to be sure you got them placed near enough to the pipes to damage them. Divers or an ROV from a sub could place magnetic timed charges directly on the pipes itself. Probably relatively easy once the sub was on station. I would imagine that there are some hydrophones to track submarines in that area too. Getting there and away undetected might not be easy.
We don't need gobs more methane in the atmosphere. Why not ignite those boils?
Keith Cress
kcress -
Keith Cress
kcress -
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
The fact that the pipe pressure stabilized 7 bar indicates that the failure occurred at approximately 70 m water depth.
georgeverghese
Chemical
NS1 blown up at 2 locations, NS2 at one location. Everyone seems to be blind to the elephant in the room.
"It is fatal to be allies with America", said the murderous old croaker H Kissinger.
Americans keep digging themselves into an ever deeper hole.
Germans may be looking forward to an epidemic of frostbite related toe amputations this winter - what a terrible price they continue to pay for losing WW2.
"It is fatal to be allies with America", said the murderous old croaker H Kissinger.
Americans keep digging themselves into an ever deeper hole.
Germans may be looking forward to an epidemic of frostbite related toe amputations this winter - what a terrible price they continue to pay for losing WW2.
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
“I think it’s a horrible thing what Germany is doing, how can you be working for peace and working from strength when someone has that kind of power over your country,” Trump said. “I think it’s very bad for Germany, very bad for the German people.”
Can't say we didn't warn them.
Can't say we didn't warn them.
Alistair_Heaton
Mechanical
They won't, they are more worried about beer and bread production being restricted.
The big debate is which one goes first.
This blowing up the pipeline is the start of the middle game of the energy war. Which is not going Russia's way so far.
The big debate is which one goes first.
This blowing up the pipeline is the start of the middle game of the energy war. Which is not going Russia's way so far.
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Why do you think it's not going Russia's way? Is it coincidence that Russia and China partnered on a the Power of Siberia pipeline just before invading Ukraine? They'll sell Europe's gas to Asia. India is poised to buy any gas China doesn't.
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Which in the end may prove to be the biggest deterrent to Putin using tactical nukes in Ukraine. Even China and India would be forced to sever ties with Russia.
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Do you really think so? China is actively perpetuating genocide and there has been no severing of ties. The Western leaders are all talk and no bite. Putin just had to wait 4 years to dispose of the only wildcard before continuing in Ukraine.
India is an interesting case. They don't really have any enemies, they just do their own thing and are careful about stepping on toes (except for Pakistan). I don't think anybody will care if they buy Russian energy.
India is an interesting case. They don't really have any enemies, they just do their own thing and are careful about stepping on toes (except for Pakistan). I don't think anybody will care if they buy Russian energy.
georgeverghese
Chemical
The US didnt have much to say about NS1 for many years. Things came to a head when Russia offered direct military assistance to Syria after 2015 or so to fend off American and British trained terrorists and mercenaries and US-NATO who were bent on getting rid of Basheer al Asad. And the warm water port of Sevastopol was key to this Russian assistance. Britain has had some 300years of confrontation with Russia over Sevastopol in their attempts to contain Russian influence in the Middle East.
This gas crisis, the NS pipelines and Germany are just collateral damage in this long battle between Anglo Saxon UK (which has drawn in Anglo Saxon dominated US lately) and Slavic Russia over Crimea - Sevastopol and consequently, about gaining influence in the current largely Anglo Saxon controlled puppet states in the ME.
Suspect, that if Russia had not successfully intervened in Syria in 2015 or so through Sevastopol in Crimea, things would be very different today with these NS pipelines.
This gas crisis, the NS pipelines and Germany are just collateral damage in this long battle between Anglo Saxon UK (which has drawn in Anglo Saxon dominated US lately) and Slavic Russia over Crimea - Sevastopol and consequently, about gaining influence in the current largely Anglo Saxon controlled puppet states in the ME.
Suspect, that if Russia had not successfully intervened in Syria in 2015 or so through Sevastopol in Crimea, things would be very different today with these NS pipelines.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- News
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question