Things are Starting to Heat Up - Part XIII 26

[dik]

For earlier threads, see:
thread1618-496010
thread1618-496614
thread1618-497017
thread1618-497239
thread1618-497988
thread1618-498967
thread1618-501135
thread1618-504850
thread1618-506948
thread1618-507973
thread1618-510266
thread1618-512015


-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[BridgeSmith]

The last thread got off topic there at the end, but in general, the form of government, and the control it exerts over the populace, makes a difference in energy production, energy usage, pollution, and CO2 emissions. Totalitarian governments can do what the leaders want, and while that theoretically could be a good thing, in practice it's been bad for the people and bad for the environment. Sure, many countries have lower per capita CO2 emissions than the US, but it comes with a much lower standard of living for the populace. Is that correlation, or cause and effect? I think it's obvious it's more than simply a correlation. A higher standard of living requires more, and more reliable, energy per person.

Therefore, it's intellectually dishonest to compare CO2 emissions per capita, while ignoring the associated discrepancies in the standard of living for the people. After all, can't we here agree on a goal of trying to improve well-being of people?

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Therefore, it's intellectually dishonest to compare CO2 emissions per capita, while ignoring the associated discrepancies in the standard of living for the people. After all, can't we here agree on a goal of trying to improve well-being of people?

Keep in mind that there is a LARGE portion of climate alarmists that use the per Capita CO2 issues to assign BLAME to the countries that have emitted CO2. This lines up with their neo-Marxist narrative of victims and oppressors. Their goal is NOT to save the planet. Rather it is to take POWER away from those who have had it (i.e. the countries with high standards of living) by any means necessary.

I'm not saying that all climate science or climate activists have this agenda. But, I'm saying that a large portion of them do. Look at Greta Thunberg. She was protesting the construction of wind farms in Norway. If she really cared about reducing CO2 emissions, she would not have done that. Instead, she was protesting because of some social justice bullshit about indigenous people and caribou herds or such.

 

[dik]

CO2 emissions have become political, and this will likely continue. Climate doesn't care if you are a fascist or a communist... the less we do and the longer we wait, the consequences could be that much greater. We are dealing with huge energy systems that have stored a 'pile of power' in the last couple of decades, and continue to do so.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

I should have added... those with the greater per capita CO2 footprints, in general, are the greater abusers.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[BridgeSmith]

I agree with all of that, JoshPlumSE, but I'm hoping that we here can elevate the discussion above that of the power-hungry and greedy climate alarmism 'leaders' and their useful idiot acolytes, and discuss the real causes and effects of CO2 and the impacts to humanity of imposing limitations to curb CO2 emissions.

 

[BrianE22]

...are the greater abusers

I don't get what you mean by "abusers", I like a warm house in the winter and ac in the summer.

Maybe because I drive an SUV?

 

[CWB1]

Fascist politicians have weaponized CO2 emissions have become political, and this will likely continue.

Fixed it for ya.

Their goal is NOT to save the planet. Rather it is to take POWER away from those who have had it

Worth noting is that the politicians pushing the recent green agendas are also responsible for the ongoing attempt to bypass our Constitution to disarm Americans via treaty, and the global minimum tax that is about to begin redistributing our wealth to our enemies.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Climate doesn't care if you are a fascist or a communist... the less we do and the longer we wait, the consequences could be that much greater.

This isn't necessarily true. There is a very large possibility that our "solutions" to the problem will cause greater harm than the initial problem itself.

In particular, history is absolutely full of such examples in the study of economics. Cases where regulations were added to produce a desired economic outcome, but the regulations only succeeded in making the original problem much much worse.

I should also point out that the political elites that claimed they spoke for "popular demand" of certain policies were frequently at odds with the opinions of the very people they claimed to represent. What I mean is that these people gained political power by misrepresenting the will of the people they were trying to protect. Then the implemented well meaning policies that made the life of the people they claimed to represent significantly worse.

Then, when the people who created these problems are asked about them, their solutions are almost always MORE regulations of the type that make the outcomes so much worse. LOL.

If you don't understand this, you really haven't ever studied the work of Milton Friedman or Thomas Sowell.

 

[rb1957]

I was listening to a podcast this morning, about the 70s oil crisis.

Prior to the 70s oil was very cheap, and so efficient use of oil was low down the list of design priorities.
Before the oil crisis there was some talk from GreenPeace and the like, concerned about our increased use of oil.
But this was, in my words, little more than "hand wringing".

The 70s crisis brought the finance market place to increase the priority of fuel efficiency, to reduce costs.
Then the "oil glut" of the 80s took much of this pressure away, as the price of petrol fell again.
But some retained an interest in fuel efficiency

Then in the 90s came, and the "story" became "CO2 from FF is a doom beyond comprehension. Repent ! Repent!".
My personal opinion is that in some backroom somewhere Al Gore and others were talking about either ...
a) People (damned people) aren't changing enough, we need a new "bogey man" to scare them into change, or
b) How do we enforce our control on others, to bend them to our will ? I know, create a new "bogey man" ...

I am all for being aware of our multi-faceted impact on the environment, but that is too "soft" a position, without "hard" science supporting the case.
I am looking into our ballooning consumption of FFs (coal and petroleum) and I think it becomes a reasonable question "can we carry on like this ? Should we ??"


"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[dik]

Correct or incorrect, climate change will proceed on the path provided for it. This is indifferent to whatever 'solutions' we come up with. They may or may not have an effect.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[hokie66]

dik,

The way I read that, you are now saying that we just need to adapt, rather than trying to change the inevitable. That's what many of us have been saying, but you were one in favor of adopting draconian measures that would change our way of life for the worse.

 

[dik]

I suspect strongly that adapting isn't going to be enough. The changes may be too great for simply adapting, except maybe by relocating. I don't know what is on the horizon. We may have to drastically change our lifestyle to make the carbon footprint less of a problem. 'Draconian measures' may be necessary, it depends on how serious the effects of climate change become. If the effects are great, then serious action will have to be undertaken. I don't know or to what extent. We'll have to wait and see what the outcome is, and hope we can still do something about it.

Australia may have an issue... What if your 'wet bulb' temperatures go over 45C... rather than just the dry bulb ones? We have to wait and see. You can then move to Tasmania?

Our current temperature, in Winnipeg, is +3C and it's going up to +8C in two days. Winnipeg's freezing index used to be higher than Moscow's. I know it's just weather, but I cannot recall a January in Winnipeg with such temperatures... we're generally well below zero at this time. My wedding was on February 14, and the temperature that day was -35C. This current weather is exceptional, IMHO.

It's a real dilemma... doing nothing and waiting to see what the outcome will be. Alternatively, addressing the issue and risking the cost for this approach. The outcome which may never occur. I don't have an answer for it. It may be a matter of waiting for a few years to see if there's an increase in climate change effects, and maybe address them at that time. It may also be a matter of waiting for a couple of years after that, and maybe address them at that time.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[GregLocock]

BoM senior climatologist Rob Smalley says the highest official wet bulb temperature recorded in Australia to date has been 31C.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[BridgeSmith]

I suspect strongly that adapting isn't going to be enough. The changes may be too great for simply adapting,

Based on my limited study of human history, I strongly suspect you're greatly underestimating the ability of the human race to adapt to a changing climate, and far overestimating our capacity for foresight of other threats of our own making.

 

[dik]

Or the changes may be overwhelming for the majority of them... we just don't know... and it may not be possible to determine/guess who or what may survive.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

With climate change, that number could go up... just don't know...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[GregLocock]

It could. That's a fairly useless statement to base your economy on. The fact that it is mere 14 deg different to your scary number is a bit of a nudge.

Meanwhile here's a snapshot of high wet bulb temperatures in Australia. the bits above 27 could also be called a graph of where people don't live

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[dik]

just a caution...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[BridgeSmith]

A caution about something that could happen, without any evidence that it's likely to happen, is just fearmongering.