Train crash in Ohio 19

[spsalso]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-causes-big-fire-evacuations/

Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.

I suspect that is the cause*.

And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.

And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.



spsalso


*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.

Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.

 

[dik]

It will be interesting to see what the cause is, if it can be determined. I've never seen a derailment, but I suspect the trackage is seriously damaged.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[spsalso]

Oh, yes. SERIOUSLY damaged. I'm sure the damaged section will be replaced. The big railroads have track panels they can "drop" in place soon after the mess is removed from the roadway.

I would guess the route could be back up in two or three days.


spsalso

 

[FacEngrPE]

This derailment includes a bunch of tank cars. It will take several days to clear the scrap before rebuilding of the railway is can start, this location has relatively good access, so recovery equipment does not need to travel only by rail.

Approximate location

https://www.google.com/maps/place/E...8m2!3d40.8339509!4d-80.5403469!16zL20vMHl0X2w

EAST PALESTINE TRAIN DERAILMENT; East Palestine officials give update on train derailment fire; by: Anna Marsick, Megan Lee, Stan Boney, Hanna Erdmann, Abigail Cloutier, Noelle Haynes; Posted: Feb 3, 2023 / 10:16 PM EST; Updated: Feb 4, 2023 / 02:16 PM EST

==========Added 4PM EST

Ohio village remains under state of emergency after train derailment, fire Derailment happened a little before 9 p.m. on Friday; WTAEUpdated: 3:14 PM EST Feb 4, 2023

Norfolk Southern said the train was carrying more than 100 cars, 20 of which were classified as carrying hazardous materials, defined as cargo that could pose any kind of danger "including flammables, combustibles, or environmental risks.” Vinyl chloride, a product in one of the rail cars, is still burning, officials said. The rail car has a safety feature that is functioning.

 

[spsalso]

Here's a source for a daylight aerial:

https://www.goshennews.com/news/nat...age_dd20a387-89ca-5488-821f-da3ac746b810.html

I also see that there's a track switch right "under" the wreck (feeding the industrial building below the tracks). That might be the location of the problem.

They move the scrap off of the roadway, and then start track repair/replacement. The (former) freight cars usually sit to the side for awhile, as there's then no rush.

I expect crews and equipment are starting to show up already, waiting for the fire to be extinguished. I believe the track will be operational within a week.


spsalso

 

[TugboatEng]

I wonder if it was crude oil being shipped? That poses additional hazard.

 

[spsalso]

According to one news source:

"A mechanical issue with a rail car axle caused the fiery derailment..."

"Michael Graham, a board member of the [NTSB], said at a news conference that the three-member train crew received an alert about the mechanical defect 'shortly before the derailment'..."

I am astounded that the NTSB would make a statement like this so soon after the event. Astounded in a good way, I think.

The details are sure to be interesting. Well, to SOME people, anyway.

I'm also astounded that the fire apparently hasn't burned out, yet. My, my.



spsalso

 

[davidbeach]

There are fires that should be extinguished as soon as practicable and the others that are better left to burn themselves out. What would a bunch of water do at that point.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

 

[TugboatEng]

Disperse the toxic crude oil?

 

[dik]

New info...

"Residents near the site of a train derailment that sparked a massive fire in East Palestine, Ohio, were urged to evacuate immediately Sunday night due to the risk of an explosion, authorities said.

“Within the last two hours, a drastic temperature change has taken place in a rail car, and there is now the potential of a catastrophic tanker failure which could cause an explosion with the potential of deadly shrapnel traveling up to a mile,” Gov. Mike DeWine warned in a statement Sunday."

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[FacEngrPE]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ohio-gov-dewine-warns-of-possible-major-explosion-at-train-derailment-site-evacuations-ordered/ar-AA1798ju[/URL]]Five of the ten derailed cars were carrying vinyl chloride, the NTSB said in a statement Saturday. The agency said it has “not confirmed vinyl chloride has been released other than from the pressure release devices.”

The cars involved were also carrying combustible liquids, butyl acrylate, and residue of benzene from previous shipments, as well as nonhazardous materials such as wheat, plastic pellets, malt liquors, and lube oil, according to the NTSB.

VINYL CHLORIDE is not a chemical to be trifled with.

https://www.chemicalbook.com/msds/VINYL-CHLORIDE.htm[/URL]]
Extinguishing media

If material on fire or involved in fire: Do not extinguish fire unless flow can be stopped. Use water in flooding quantities as fog. Cool all affected containers with flooding quantities of water. Apply water from as far a distance as possible.
Specific Hazards Arising from the Chemical
Special Hazards of Combustion Products: Forms highly toxic combustion products such as hydrogen chloride, phosgenic, and carbon monoxide. Behavior in Fire: Container may explode in fire. Gas is heavier than air and may travel considerable distance to a source of ignition and flash back. (USCG, 1999)

Advice for firefighters

Shut off supply; if not possible and no risk to surroundings, let the fire burn itself out. In other cases extinguish with powder, carbon dioxide, water spray. See Notes. In case of fire: keep cylinder cool by spraying with water. Combat fire from a sheltered position.

 

[cranky108]

"malt liquors", What a shame.

I suspect they have a hot box detector in the area, and that is how they know it was an axal problem. But in the area of switches there is usually a slow order for the speed limits on the switches. But that would depend on what kind of switch there is.

 

[dik]

Can they drop 'foam' for fire suppression? like the stuff used for aircraft fires?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[drwebb]

A temperature rise in the vinyl chloride tanks (or butyl acrylate) is suggestive of potential self accelerating polymerization. Very bad for a closed container, and probably why they're threatening to arrest anyone remaining inside the evacuation zone.

 

[JLNJ]

50 cars derailed. They are expecting explosions.

 

[CWB1]

Single digits Fahrenheit isnt particularly cold in the grand scale of automotive/rail testing. Lab testing typically runs to -20F or -30F with additional site-testing done in the Yukon or Alaska at lower temps. I'd have my doubts that eastern Ohio reached single-digit temps but even if they did it shouldn't cause critical failures.

I suspect the fires are intentionally being allowed to burn under the guise of safety but also as a means of limiting the necessary cleanup. Not only is surface spread an issue with liquids but also ground soak, so while extinguishing and recapture of contaminants seems ideal a big raging fire to cook it all into the atmosphere is sometimes preferrable.

 

[spsalso]

I agree that single-digit temps should not cause critical failures.

But:

https://archive.jsonline.com/news/w...travel-still-safe-b99190454z1-242095721.html/

I brought the cold up because of a recollection of a derailment in maybe West Virginia, that I recall being a "rail snap". I don't have anything beyond that recollection, but it did stick in my mind. While there is rail testing done, with additional testing done in the Yukon and Alaska, that does not mean that the track designers, installers, or maintenance people made their track conform to those findings.



Quote from Michael Graham, NTSB

"We have obtained two videos which show preliminary indications of mechanical issues on one of the railcar axles."

They also found a place where the derailment happened, aways uptrack outside the "restricted area". The point of derailment can be quite a bit earlier than the actual crash of a train. There have even been derailments that re-railed themselves.

I am surprised that there is video, if it came from a hotbox or dragging equipment detector. In the olden days, there was a simple automated radio transmission to the engineer (and likely elsewhere). Video sounds like a great idea, if you can pull it off.


spsalso

 

[zeusfaber]

The temperature rise might just be because a lot of the liquid that had been cooling one of the tanks from inside as it boiled off through the vent valve has now boiled away.

With the reduced cooling from inside, there's a risk that the fire outside will heat the tank walls to the point where they fail, leading to a sudden release of pressurised, boiling, flammable fluid.

Heat Induced Tears aren't nice.

A.

 

[FacEngrPE]

Track design determines a Rail Neutral Temperature. There is a tool called a railpuller that is used to make the adjustment in rail tension so it will have the correct RNT. RNT is a balance between too much tension could exceed the rails tensile capacity resulting in a broken track on a maximum cold day. Too little, and the track could buckle from compression loading on the hottest day.
Broken rails do occur but are rare.

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/2019-09/CWR_GenericPlan_2_7_18_Final.pdf

Chapter 1 CWR Installation Procedures
Rail lengths welded together that exceed 400 feet are considered CWR. Rail installed as
CWR remains CWR, regardless of whether a joint or plug is installed into the rail at a later
time. Temperature variations affect rail length. Rail expands (lengthens) when heated
and contracts (shortens) when cooled.
1.1 Desired Rail Neutral Temperature
Rail neutral temperature (RNT) is the temperature at which rail is neither in tension nor
compression. Designated rail laying temperatures have been established based on
geographic and average yearly ambient temperature to provide a specific Desired Rail
Neutral Temperature (DRNT) to prevent track buckling. Rail installation temperatures
may be slightly higher or lower than the DRNT, but are to be within the designated rail
installation range. The XXX Railroad’s DRNT is XXX degrees F. The designated rail
neutral temperature safe range is from XX to XX degrees F (+/-20°F from DRNT).
1.2 Temperature Differential
The difference between the designated rail laying temperature and the actual rail
temperature taken at the time of installation is called the temperature differential. CWR rail
laying and adjusting procedures have been established in Chapters 1 and 3 of this CWR
Plan to compensate for this temperature differential.
1.3 Installing CWR
Most commonly thought of as laying rail out-of-face; however, distances as short as a few
hundred feet might be installed.
•
•
The rail should be in a non-stress free state when laid in the bed.
If fastened down at this time, the Rail Neutral Temperature (RNT) is established, and
equal to the Rail Temperature (RT).
• If the RT is lower than the desired RNT, the temperature differential is calculated and
the required expansion is determined based on the temperature differential and rail
length.
• The rail is then uniformly expanded. The actual length and expansion are then used to
determine the new RNT.

Reference 49 CFR §213.119 Continuous Welded Rail (CWR); Plan Content

 

[dik]

are rails tensioned?


What is the restricted area?



-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik