Train crash in Ohio 19

[spsalso]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-causes-big-fire-evacuations/

Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.

I suspect that is the cause*.

And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.

And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.



spsalso


*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.

Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.

 

[spsalso]

I understand that crew size and duties is a matter of discussion for unions and railroads.

I just don't see how it would apply to this crash. There WAS a full crew on board.

What I do think is that if they still ran cabooses, and if there was the typical olden days crew count in that car (conductor and rear brakeman), and if one or both of them were in the cupola watching the train, THEN there's a strong possibility that they would have seen the failing truck and stopped the train in time. Since the train was so long, the chance to have been in a viewing situation might have been minimal to none.

That said, cabooses have been essentially gone for 35 years, and there has not been an incredible rise of train wrecks in that time.

But that's kinda old news, now.

My personal view is that I don't want a train weighing 15,000 tons and traveling at 60 mph to be in the control of only one person. Perhaps some of that Real Science Research would prove my fears unfounded. Or not.


spsalso

 

[TiCl4]

Apparently the method for dealing with the vinyl chloride involved draining the tank and burning the drained material. A quick search shows that “trace” amounts of phosgene (and tons of HCl) are formed. Does anyone have an idea of what constitutes “trace”?

Erpg-3 of vinyl chloride is 20,000 ppm. Erpg-3 of phosgene is 1.5 ppm. That, combined with all the HCl released (ERPG-3 of 150 ppm) makes me wonder if a larger hazard was created via the burn.

Would not a safer alternative have been to deliver initiator (drone drop?) to the pool of drained VC and let it polymerize, locking in a majority of the chemical as non-haz PVC?

People who work with VC, thoughts? Would autopolymerization temp have thermally degraded most of the VC and resulted in a worse outcome than burning?

 

[dik]

As my dad used to say, "Don't pet sweaty things..." or something like that. I have no issue with American news printing weather issues about Australia or New Zealand, or for that matter printing stuff about earthquakes in Turkiye (aka Turkey)... I'm not too sure when the new spelling arrived.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Combine the two into an "earthquake weather" story and now we have a problem.

 

[dik]

You notice we didn't, Tug... no problem with that...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

You kind of did.

 

[1503-44]

I'm OK with Euronews' report.
Not like American news is known for its responsible, unbiased, nonpolitical reporting.
MTG has the most irresponsible report I've seen so far. Lol.
Euronews is probably the least biased source, unfortunately which relatively few Americans will ever see.
10 days into it and the potential scope is still apparently unknown.
Fox headlines "Nuclear Winter"

https://www.foxnews.com/media/ohio-...-compared-nuclear-winter-nuked-town-chemicals

Don't look up. Dont look at the river. Back to school.

Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[FacEngrPE]

The caboose had a much bigger roll when the railcar axle bearings were oil lubricated babbtt. The oil was wicked onto the axle by rags or a wick stuffed into the journal box.
Sometimes the journal would run dry, Resulting in a Hot Box. Hot boxes almost always will trail a smoke cloud, easily seen from the rear of the train. The failed roller bearing which is glowing incandescent in the video posted above, may not have smoked much, and is harder to see from the rear of the train.
The trackside monitors were reported to have observed that the bearing was first failed, and then much worse. The response criteria likely will come into question.
Is it better to stop, and replace the car axle in the field (blocking the line), or pull the car to a siding? It is likely that if the train stopped the axle would have welded to the truck frame making it impossible to move without skidding the wheels on that axle.

Oil Lubricated journal (obsolete)

Roller Bearing Failure Modes in railway applications are a well understood problem.

Attached ROLLER BEARING FAILURE MECHANISMS TEST AND WHEEL ANOMALY TEST REPORT; Federal Railroad Administration Office of Research and Development, June 1992

Attachment would not attach here, I will try further down in the list.

 

[davefitz]

In addition to repairing the track, there is concern that there will be chemical hazards over a wide area. The vinyl chloride vapor is related to causing breast cancer in both men and women, and burning the vinyl chloride leads to the formation of dioxin and other hazards.Exactly how to reduce the exposure of these to safe levels is not clear to me, and distributing the possibly dioxin-coated foodstuffs that are produced in that wide area would distribute the risk to the entire nation.A similar risk decision was faced in the early 1960's, when individual dairy farms had suffered contamination from nuclear fallout from atmospheric testing. The decision at that time was to prohibit the sale of raw milk to local communities and require the milk to be diluted at central processing facilities, which basically spread the risk to the entire nation.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[dik]

Not attached... can you include it? thanks, dik

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[ProSafPlant1]

Burning creates a rising fire plume that carries the toxic components upward for safer dispersion in the atmosphere. The 1979 Mississauga rail disaster reportedly would have been much more serious if the burning propane cars hadn't helped disperse the chlorine, which otherwise could have spread along the ground in a toxic heavier than air cloud over a wide area.
Example of worst case modelling of a chlorine tank car release, for the insurance industry:

 

[FacEngrPE]

This is the document I attempted to attach above.

Attached ROLLER BEARING FAILURE MECHANISMS TEST AND WHEEL ANOMALY TEST REPORT; Federal Railroad Administration Office of Research and Development, June 1992

 

[TiCl4]

ProSafPlant,

I know well the effect of a Cl2 railcar. I was in Columbia SC when a derailed Cl2 railcar killed 9 people.

My question above was related to the relative toxicity of vinyl chloride as compared to HCl. It seemed like they created a greater immediate hazard by burning. Perhaps the long-term carcinogenic risk was much greater than the short term acid vapor?

 

[dik]

Thanks for the doc...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[MortenA]

@TiCL4,

I think its a case of "damned if you do and damned if you dont" But you idea to polymerized the vinyl chloride seems novel and something that might have value in future emergency preparedness? This would require gear and chemicals to be ready (or readily obtainable) at various location but i thin it sound interesting.

--- Best regards, Morten Andersen

 

[FacEngrPE]

Polymerized the vinyl chloride under the conditions that existed, likely would have resulted in a mixture of burning PVC, vinyl chloride, and who knows what else. I think it is an approach that should be bench tested so if viable it is available, and not just a mystery, and the go kit would be on hand.

 

[Compositepro]

The boiling point of vinyl chloride is just under 8F. A flammable vapor cloud is far more dangerous than a burning pool of liquid. Vinyl chloride was used as a propellant in cans of hair spray back in the 60's. It was fun to make flame throwers with them, although the fumes were very pungent.

 

[JohnRBaker]

For what it's worth:

‘32 Nasty:’ Rail Workers Say They Knew the Train That Derailed in East Palestine Was Dangerous

A freight train carrying toxic chemicals derailed 50 miles outside Pittsburgh, forced thousands to evacuate, and created a toxic cloud. Workers knew the train had safety issues.

https://deal.town/vice/32-nasty-rai...led-in-east-palestine-was-dangerous-P3KANK328

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[spsalso]

The train didn't go on the ground because it was "dangerous". And it didn't go on the ground because it had "safety issues". It went on the ground because a truck failed catastrophically.



spsalso

 

[TugboatEng]

Back to the Pub with that kind of story.

An obvious direction here would be to apply condition monitoring to trains that carry hazardous cargo. Maybe even sensitive cargo (people). A simple bearing temperature sensor PLUS a policy that requires investigation or temperature anomalies would have prevented this derailment.

Fusible link type sensing would make the system easy to implement but would probably cause a lot of false alarms. Ethernet based sensors make multiplexing a cinch, real time reading of every sensor is possible. Temp sensors are so inexpensive redundancy doesn't have any significant obstacles.