Train crash in Ohio 19

[spsalso]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-causes-big-fire-evacuations/

Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.

I suspect that is the cause*.

And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.

And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.



spsalso


*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.

Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.

 

[1503-44]

Isn't the emphesis on track located detectors, rather than onboard sensors?

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[debodine]

I am not a railroader, 1503-44, so I cannot speak with any authority but to the best of my knowledge you are correct. I have often heard the automated voice of these detectors over my 2 meter ham radio. The down side is they are not very close together, and do not send a signal (I think) until the End of Train has passed. Also, the crew has to be listening to the correct frequency to hear if a defect is detected.

The critical down side (in my non-qualified opinion) is the defect detection is not necessarily real time. For example, given a long train that at current speed would take 10 minutes for all cars to pass the detector (not unusual near populated areas). assume immediately after the third car passes the detector, a flaw develops in one truck of the third car. If the detector picks it up, it will not (I believe) transmit until the End of Train has passed nearly 10 minutes later. If the detector just missed it, you have whatever time lapse is necessary to get to the next detector (often 15-20 miles down the line) plus the 10 minutes after the next detector identifies the flaw on the third railcar before the End of Train and the transmission of the flaw.

I was thinking benefits of on-board sensors would be;

Continuous monitoring;
Real time identification of a parameter that exceeds a limit;
Real time notification to the crew in the cab;
A visual and even an alarm display/sound in the cab regardless of whether or not the crew is monitoring a specific frequency.

 

[1503-44]

But suppisedly they can at least be placed at critical points ahead of entering cities, sensitive areas etc, with enough density to give advance time warning not to enter if a bearing is on fire or at dangerous temperature levels, with signals sent to dispatch, whom could supposedly contact the driver via radio, and or even by the old fashion track signalling techniques. From what I've read, that is entirely feasible, just the RR have not done it, preferring to do stock buybacks of nearly 200 billion dollars during the last 10 yrs rather than put out for public safety features.

I mean it seems like for all the bad press pipelines get, their safety systems and records are way better than the elephant in this room and nobody has apparently been paying much attention to this except for removing RR safety regulations. Could that be correct?

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[TugboatEng]

The regulation wasn't removed, it was never put into effect after independent study found insufficient justification.

https://www.aar.org/article/ecp-brakes/#!

 

[1503-44]

Guess they'll have to take that study up again.

Is the rest true?

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[CWB1]

Anyone know how US rail HAZMAT safety performance stacks up against other jurisdictions?

Most safety stats that I've seen show the US system as very comparable to the EU and developed portions of Asia. The issue with making such comparisons tho is that the US system is massive compared to the rest of the world, its like comparing commercial vs non-commercial vehicle drivers.

I dont doubt that modern thermal imagery and AI could detect bearing issues in passing trucks, but I'd be curious to see the technology function as well as the cost analysis. Low-speed bearings aren't giving off a large amount of heat, esp contained in large steel heatsinks hot from braking events.

 

[Just Some Nerd]

Some nice hypothetical discussions up above but worth noting for this case the train would not have been subject to any regulation mandating ECP brakes for flammable trains. From the VERIFY article posted above:

In an email, an NTSB spokesperson told VERIFY the train involved in the Ohio derailment was not equipped with ECP brakes. On Feb. 16, NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy addressed misinformation spreading about the derailment on Twitter.

Homendy directly acknowledged that the ECP brake rule would not have prevented the crash if implemented because the train that derailed in East Palestine was a mixed freight train that contained only three placarded Class 3 flammable liquids cars. Homendy said the ECP braking rule would have applied only to high-hazard flammable trains.

“This means even if the rule had gone into effect, this train wouldn't have had ECP brakes,” Homendy said.

Could also be an interesting discussion to try determine where the line for ECP breaks should be drawn, though

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Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

 

[spsalso]

What effect do you think having the train be fully ECP equipped would have had on the crash?

ECP braking is not a new thing for railroads. It was used on some high speed passenger trains in the United States starting in the 1930's. Almost 100 years ago. New York Air Brake Company had the DCE brake system, while Westinghouse had the HSC and AHSC systems. Various of the Union Pacific M-10000 trains were equipped with the systems.


spsalso

 

[FacEngrPE]

It is a well known fact that trucks and trains have a tendency to jackknife when hard breaking is applied to the front of the vehicle, but not the rear.
It takes some time for a breaking signal to propagate through a 100+ car train. One of the things ECP breaks were supposed to provide was a breaking signal that could propagate from the rear of the train, which would put the string of cars in tension, minimizing the tendency to jackknife.

If this train was equipped with distributed power, a sort of poor man's ECP will exist as the distributed engines are radio controlled, and can initiate a breaking signal (or dynamic breaking) from wherever in the string the remote engine(s) is located.

I am not aware of any reports that indicated this train used (or did not use) distributed power.

More news soon

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/RRD23MR005.aspx

NTSB to Issue Preliminary Report on East Palestine Derailment - The National Transportation Safety Board will issue its preliminary report Thursday Feb 23 after 10 a.m.

 

[davidbeach]

A braking signal would do far more to prevent thing’s going off the rails than a breaking signal would.

I’ll see your silver lining and raise you two black clouds. - Protection Operations

 

[TugboatEng]

That's not true. This train went off the rails due to breaking, not due to a lack of braking.

 

[enginesrus]

Just like all school zones have signs to slow car and truck drivers down in those zones. That is what needs to be in populated areas for trains, it would also help in the rail road crossing crash accidents.
If the speed was low enough the damage would not have been so great. And if all dangerous cargo rail cars have to have a pre trip inspection, then this sort of thing would be unlikely.

 

[spsalso]

OK.

So let's limit trains with hazardous materials to 10 MPH through populated areas. I assume "populated" includes any place someone plops their old Airstream. If not, how is "populated" defined?

And let's also limit speeds to 10 MPH for trucks and shipping, for the same materials.

As someone who appreciates observing the March of Commerce, I applaud this opportunity to view it in "slow motion".

I'm in. Totally in!

I really should mention, however, that should a "pile o' nastiness" spill out over Protected Lands, that that 10 MPH speed limit will likely end up applying for the entire trip of the load.


Interesting!


spsalso

 

[1503-44]

Gas pipelines have area classifications for which different safety factors are applied to determine maximum operating pressure, or v/v with a constant operating pressure, what pipe wall is required for each area class. Each house or occupied structure within 1/4 mile to each side of the route is counted within every contiguous linear mile of route. Design factors range from 0.4 for most densely populated segments to 0.72 in open space.

Fortunately we can keep a constant velocity. Not that should make much difference to surface traffic, as I have noticed that not all speed limits are 70mph and hazardous cargos are already prohibited from entering many city centers, or time limited and often being diverted to belt roads circumferencing larger cities. Even aircraft have velocity limits in high traffic zones. I don't think its speed limits that are causing the bulk of delays in delivery of most stuff, but I give you that ocean traffic is relatively pretty slow.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[cranky108]

What is your definition of hazardous cargos? Gasoline, crude oil, Lithium batteries, alcohol, sulfur, other flammable materials?
This is the likely sticking point of such slow orders.
Then the question is if it is safer to ship these by rail or by truck.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Would it be federal of state level the DGR transport rules?

 

[Just Some Nerd]

It is a well known fact that trucks and trains have a tendency to jackknife when hard breaking is applied to the front of the vehicle, but not the rear.

Fun fact, my very first day of university started with Physics 1a and demonstrated this exact principle with a model car on a slope. I would hope that the rail industry never neglects that problem

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Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

 

[FacEngrPE]

Preliminary Report: February 23, 2023 is attached.
as we have chewed on the hot box issue with little actual data, here are some facts.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/RRD23MR005.aspx[/URL]]​On the Fort Wayne Line of the Keystone Division, NS has equipped their rail network with HBD systems to assess the temperature conditions of wheel bearings while en route. The function of the HBD is to detect overheated bearings and provide audible real-time warnings to train crews. Train 32N passed three HBD systems on its trip before the derailment. At MP 79.9, the suspect bearing from the 23rd car had a recorded temperature of 38°F above ambient temperature. When train 32N passed the next HBD, at MP 69.01, the bearing’s recorded temperature was 103°F above ambient. The third HBD, at MP 49.81, recorded the suspect bearing’s temperature at 253°F above ambient. NS has established the following HBD alarm thresholds (above ambient temperature) and criteria for bearings:

​Between 170°F and 200°F, warm bearing (non-critical); stop and inspect
A difference between bearings on the same axle greater than or equal to 115°F (non-critical); stop and inspect
Greater than 200°F (critical); set out railcar

I make an interpretation here that this bearing failed faster than anticipated by the railroads engineering department. The hot box detectors on this track section are between 10 and 20 miles apart, with the spacing immediately before the failure being 20 miles. Perhaps HBD spacing needs to be 10 miles?

The engineer attempted to slow by dynamic breaking, but after a short while the train automatically applied it's brakes. This likely indicates that the train separated, and the brake pipe became uncoupled. At this point one of the cars had left the track and as a result was de-accelerating faster than the remaining cars in the string. and every thing crumples.

Feb 23 media briefing

 

[dik]

added news...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/23/us/ohio-train-derailment-east-palestine-thursday

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

... or maybe their criteria could be modified to include a temperature increase of more than 25% from the previous reading. Stop and check...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik