Train crash in Ohio 19

[spsalso]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-causes-big-fire-evacuations/

Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.

I suspect that is the cause*.

And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.

And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.



spsalso


*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.

Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.

 

[dik]

Other tests:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/25/us/ohio-train-derailment-bearing-vibration

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

I was thinking that if the head ends kept pulling the deceleration may not be so abrupt. Eventually the train has to be stopped but sudden application of full braking may not be the best route.

You're right, with EP braking, cars behind the derailment could brake while engines ahead could pull.

 

[spsalso]

A little bit of "boots on the ground" railroading, and bearing failure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYjSEEc--0k

spsalso

 

[spsalso]

"I was thinking that if the head ends kept pulling the deceleration may not be so abrupt. Eventually the train has to be stopped but sudden application of full braking may not be the best route."

So noted in the Youtube video. He mentions letting the train coast for awhile, and then maybe gently braking (as I recall). That's pretty much what the Palestine train did, in that he was already in dynamic because of going downgrade. If he took it off of dynamic, it would speed up. Not the goal in mind. Hence more dynamic.


"You're right, with EP braking, cars behind the derailment could brake while engines ahead could pull."

I don't think so, at least when the train is still in one piece. All EP braking does is get the braking action to commence sooner. Without it, the signal to activate brakes has to travel down the air line. That is not as fast as electricity. With EP, the brakes all go on together. With regular air, it takes "awhile".

After the train has broken apart, it's pretty much all over. As I said, you'd probably save a couple of cars. And that would depend on transmitting signals to cars with the train broken apart. If it uses wires, that wouldn't work. If it uses wireless, it would have to potentially jump past the crashing cars--might not make it.

What EP is good for is running at higher operating speeds, because you get more efficient brake application--RIGHT NOW! You don't have to anticipate as much. Much of railroad operation is anticipation--you're controlling thousands of tons. Sorta like operating a large ocean going ship. But in a straight line.


spsalso

 

[TugboatEng]

The problem with dynamic braking is that it's done at the engines. Using the head end engines to dynamic brake would exacerbate the problem. Setting trailing engines only to dynamic brake during this type of emergency MAY be safer.

 

[dik]

You'd think that engineers (train) would know the best manner in which to do an emergency braking. They've only been doing the job for over a century.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

The way we've always done it is always the best way, right?

 

[dik]

Not always, Tug... but, I would think that running trains for long time over great distances that those operating them would have a pretty good idea of how to safely stop them quickly. I don't know if train 'drivers' have driving tests, or what sort of training is undertaken. I suspect that Alistair has taken some training on how to stop a plane quickly.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[spsalso]

The train was already in dynamics. That would be all three(?) locomotives. Two front and one mid-train, I think. Seems like not enough, but I am more familiar with western railroading.

Since the engineer did NOT know what was going to happen, or even what the problem was,

And since he was already in dynamic (because of the grade),

And since using only the rear one was likely inadequate, and perhaps even less of a brake than what he was already using,

Doing the most conservative stop would be appropriate. Thus an increase in dynamics would be the best solution FOR THE PROBLEM AS HE KNEW IT.



spsalso

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I suspect that Alistair has taken some training on how to stop a plane quickly.

Over covid and pilot redundancy quite a few went to train driving in Europe and never came back.

Apparently the training is a lot longer and a lot more involved than flying a plane.

To be honest we don't get that much training. If you demonstrate you have the jist of it then that's it. And most do. Keep it in a straight line and press the pedals until the antiskid kicks in and max reverse thrust or leave the autobrakes to do the job with max reverse thrust.

The turbo props were manual braking with pretty powerful anti skid. The A220 is auto brakes and your best to leave it alone and let it do its job and concentrate on keeping it on the runway.

I would think trains are the same with emergency braking, the driver triggers it or the dead mans reset and it just does its thing.

 

[FacEngrPE]

In the US these are the minimum requirements.
Title 49 Subtitle B Chapter II Part PART 240 - QUALIFICATION AND CERTIFICATION OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS Railroads must submit their implementation to US DOT, and can add their own additions. It does look significantly involved.

Normal application of train brakes depends on the skill of the locomotive engineer letting compressed air out of the brake pipe. When the string of cars separates and the brake hose uncouples, the cars closest to the uncoupled hose will apply brakes as fast as the air is released. The brake application will then propagate in both directions down the car string, the engineer is just along for the ride.

Here is an explanation of the train braking system authored by a locomotive engineerNorth American Freight Train Brakes by Al Krug

 

[dik]

Thanks... the brake article is great...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

it certainly is.

And thankfully we don't have to think or understand as much stopping an aircraft.

 

[dik]

They've done this before...

https://theintercept.com/2023/02/23...ium=email&utm_source=The Intercept Newsletter

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[cranky108]

Locally there is a place where trains use the dynamics, and from the sound, they are applied to both the front and rear engines of the train. Also in building a train, it is more important to design the breaking power than the driving power. So the power of the engines may never be completely applied. But the breaking may be.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Sounds the same as aviation.

I haven't done a full power take off in over 14 years. I have though done more than a few max performance decelerations every year.

 

[TugboatEng]

I apologize for the headline:

https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-new...ting-for-dioxins-scientist-calls-reason-lame/

It appears the EPA is not testing for dioxins at the site because they don't have a prior baseline.

 

[dik]

No need to apologise... It seems that government agencies are doing less and less protection... FAA, EPA and others...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[cranky108]

The whole federal governments attitude seems to be that it is a red state, so it is not important.
I guess we should call the present administration the blue state government.

This is like the administration during the depression, which allocated WPA projects mostly to states that voted for the president.
By another name, cronyism.

 

[TugboatEng]

If there is dioxin present it may qualify as a Superfund Site. That would mean a lot of investment in the region.

https://www.epa.gov/dioxin/dioxin-s...,characterize soil contaminated with dioxins.

Notice none of the assessment criteria involve a "baseline".