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Train crash in Ohio 19

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spsalso

spsalso

Electrical
Jun 27, 2021
943

Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.

I suspect that is the cause*.

And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.

And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.



spsalso


*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.

Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.
 
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IRS... it's not just the temperature, but an increase in temperature. This was detected long before the warning was given and would have given them the opportunity to stop.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik
 
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TugboatEng said:
It sounds like the bearing went from ok to warning between hot boxes, braking was initiated, and the bearing failed before the train was able to be stopped. A reduction in stopping distance would be the only way to have prevented this failure and the best way to reduce stopping distance is to reduce speed.
Click to expand...

The other way to reduce stopping distance is better brakes. "Advanced brakes", like the ones that should have been installed a long time ago, would have accomplished this.

This is from 2008:
 
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Basically, they would have saved only 20 minutes, since only the second hot box could have been the trigger

see particularly slides 10 and 15/16.

slide 3 indicates that existing limits already result in 40% false alarms, so lowering the threshold even more will result in even more false alarms and disruptions to service.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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Out of curiosity, I understand that running a long train with a big engine provides best efficiency but when the train becomes so long it requires multiple engines, why not break the train up into shorter, easier to stop units? I understand the manning issue but each train is only two men.

I'm thinking one engine in the front and one dynamic braking unit in the rear.
 
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See
Seems to me there are number of reasons why single long trains are more efficient than multiple shorter trains. Additionally, more trains means more coordination along tracks and more separation distances to keep track of. The Greek train collision is a glaring example of what happens when the coordination fails.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
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Part of the reason for having more than one power units on the lead of a train, is if one engine fails, then at least there is enough power to limp to the next siding. Other wise you would have just clogged the rails and slowed down other trains.
No surprise here. Also there is the issue of how much pulling power one can have with out pulling the couplers off the cars.
Longer trains also mean fewer trains, so simple math here.
Currently the slowest trains are coal trains. And part of that is because of the value of the cargo.
But what was found, in the past is the type of traction used made a difference.
DC traction motors, while cheaper to purchase, can not put 100% of the engine power to the rails at slow speed.
AC traction, while more expensive to purchase, can put close to 100% of the engine power to the rails at slow speed.
So as the railroads are changing from DC to AC traction, not all engines are capable of pulling long trains at low speeds.
This transition is also slow because of cost and current production- rates for new engines.
Also the AC traction requires more maintenance, and more highly trained technicians to work on them. A man power requirement that most railroads, and other industries are struggling with.
 
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BNSF has been, generally, assigning AC locomotives to coal trains ever since BNSF was formed (1996). And DC locomotives to high speed freight. Generally.

At BNSF locations where I've observed coal trains mixed with general freight, they all run at the same speed. Helps planning and to keep the road clear.

spsalso
 
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This needs to be looked into to see is this was an issue in the Ohio train crash:

Leaked audio reveals US rail workers were told to skip inspections as Ohio crash prompts scrutiny to industry

Exclusive: employee says manager told her to stop marking cars for repair, as Ohio derailment brings hard look at industry’s record of blocking safety rules


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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I do think that the claims and observations in the article should be taken seriously. Really.

I'm sure the NTSB will be looking at the history of the failed car. And that they started doing that within 24 hours of the crash. And, in a year or two, we can read about it.

Note that NTSB has not released their report on the Empire Builder crash of September 25, 2021.

Nor, for that matter, has NIST had much to say about the Florida condo collapse (June 24, 2021).



spsalso
 
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A very very good question.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
 
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If the factories that used all that Bad Plastic were right next to the ones that produce them, then the Bad Chemicals wouldn't have to be transported more than a mile or so.

Darryl's PEX Incorporated could have Other Brother Darryl's Chemical Incorporated just send over a couple of vats with a fork lift. Or maybe just build a 1000 yard pipeline.

"Thanks for the quick delivery, Other Brother Darryl!"


spsalso
 
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NEVER underestimate the amount of damage that can be done with a forklift.
 
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Oh, I am familiar with that. But it would have been far less than what DID happen.


spsalso
 
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Removing information from the public domain is becoming a trend with this administration.

"Environmental researchers say the combustion of vinyl chloride almost certainly created dioxins, a highly toxic chemical that can remain in the environment for years. However, the EPA has resisted calls to test for it, and the agency removed from its website the results of its in-depth soil analyses, so it’s unclear which chemicals are in the soil."


 
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This administration? You're lucky there's anything left of the EPA at all. The reason for removal of the information was not given, for which there could be many legitimate reasons. One possibility; the area appears to have been previously contaminated by incineration. It makes no sense to publish information that will potentially be directly related to this train crash by opportunists, if you have no baseline of what existed beforehand. Which brings us to the elephant in the room, inadequate public protection from emmission abusers of all sorts.

"Trump’s presidency proudly presided over a bonfire of regulations, including health and safety controls, and eviscerated almost 100 environmental protections."

"East Palestine’s waste disposal has raised fresh questions about the disposal of toxic substances. Some of the waste is being sent to incinerators around Ohio, while about 1.5m gallons of wastewater is being injected into wells deep into the Earth’s crust near Houston. Deep wells can leak waste into groundwater, and are thought to cause earthquakes.

Meanwhile, some contaminated soil was shipped to a Michigan landfill with a history of discharging PFAS into a public sewer system. A state-of-the-art incinerator in Arkansas is likely equipped to more safely handle the East Palestine waste, Kiger said."

Obfuscation of information in the public domain goes well back to the 80's when EXXON and scores of other companies began painting out logos on their tanks and creating shell companies for their questionable activities making it nearly impossible for the general public to ever find out who is responsible for anything going on in their neighborhoods. Its virtually impossible to find any technical details of any industrial site anywhere, including plans that must be submitted for gov approval, all hidden under "confidential commercial information" redactions. One soil study removed, for unknown reasons? Hardly anything to get excited about. Try to find out how much of all this stuff is being shipped around on the tracks and highways in your neighborhood. Now that's a challenge. Took me 2 weeks to find the TC Keystone (not XL) Pipeline permit application. Basically I just got lucky. During Obama's administration, I could see the construction progress report photos and data. After Trunp got in, NOTHING.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
 
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It's happened again; a Norfolk Southern train derails in Ohio, only this time there was no chemical spill nor fire, however, it did take out some power-lines leaving 1,500 homes in the dark:

20 cars of Norfolk Southern train derail in Ohio; no hazardous materials on board, officials say

It was the second derailment of the company’s trains in Ohio in a month.


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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OK. Basically something else is at work besides probability.
Suspected case of corporate profit at all cost with a blatant disregard for safety shaping up.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
 
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One of the things with probability is that sometimes the improbable happens.



spsalso
 
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Correct. I should have said "the probability of independent events".

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
 
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