Train crash in Ohio 19

[spsalso]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-causes-big-fire-evacuations/

Note the mention of extremely low temperatures.

I suspect that is the cause*.

And I suspect the train crew should have been told to operate at restricted speed, because of that possibility.

And/or the trackage should have been installed taking into account these temperatures.



spsalso


*I'm talking about the effects of rail contraction at cold temperatures. A rail joint could have failed. Or rail could have been pulled up on a curve. I suppose a rail could even have snapped.

Besides restricted speed, there's also the running of an inspection car ahead of the train.

 

[bones206]

Cronyism? Which president rolled back safety regulations at the behest of industry lobbyists and to the detriment of ordinary citizens? Also, look into Nancy Beck - appointed by Trump. Then get back to me about cronyism.

 

[debodine]

This being an engineering site, I don't see much value in arguing whose cronyism (or any other political process) is the worst. The point is all presidential administrations do it, and so do all Senators and Congressional Representatives, and so do all unelected heads of the thousands of unelected bureaucrats that control our lives. It is a fact of life that certainly affects the world in which we engineer, but we won't solve it or any other political process in this forum. We cannot engineer a solution to the mess, but we must make our engineering decisions within the framework of this reality.

Personally, some days I would like to admit to China that they have already bought and paid for Washington, DC, cut it out of the Potomac basin, and ship it in toto to China - COD!

On the other hand, at a basic human level much deeper than my engineering interest, I sometimes enjoy watching the unproductive yet entertaining bickering. After all, I AM still human!

 

[bones206]

I know, I usually resist. But today I guess was the day I decided to call out the BS

 

[debodine]

bones, so I can count on your help when I dig DC out of the Potomac basin and send it to the far East? hehe

 

[bones206]

Not sure what China has to do with any of this?

 

[debodine]

LOL well if we are gonna cut out DC, we might as well get someone to buy it to give us funds to start over! I think China might have the funds available.

 

[Eufalconimorph]

> The whole federal governments attitude seems to be that it is a red state, so it is not important.
> I guess we should call the present administration the blue state government.

The actions the federal government can (legally) take without the governor issuing a declaration of emergency are extremely limited. It's the state's right to control whether they ask for disaster relief, and they haven't done so. The federal government has explicitly offered it, but that offer has not been accepted.

 

[TugboatEng]

I would beg to differ when EPA is involved.

 

[hokie66]

There were no safety regulations rolled back that would have prevented this accident. The article which JRB linked quoted a current NTSB official who said that even if the air braking regulation were in effect, it would not have applied to this train. And even if it were, as spsalso has explained here, the cause was not a brake failure.

 

[1503-44]

What's the solution?

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[bones206]

The reason the regulation would not have applied to this case is because the train length would not have met the threshold length requirement for the brakes. The reason the threshold requirement was so high to begin with was because of successful lobbying by the rail industry. There was an engineered solution to this problem available, but the cost-benefit analysis by the rail industry sees disasters like this as a worthwhile trade off to having to implement the engineered solutions. As with all industries, the cost to society does not factor in to their analysis.

 

[bones206]

Hence the need for regulation.

 

[cranky108]

I believe there is future regulation for the requirement of thicker shell on tank cars. But that regulation can't be rushed because of car life and new production levels. That may help, but it might have helped had that regulation been enacted sooner. None the less the media is attempting to point fingers to shift blame off the current administration.
Although there is not much the present administration could have done, other than visit the site, and make people a little happier. But clean up funding might make a difference to the people who are true victims. That said, there will surly be non-victims who will be around with there hands out.

If there is true BS I would say it is in the media finger pointing, and administration CYA. But it is true the administration seems to be ignoring the event, as best as they can.

 

[bones206]

Just because government agencies are trying to go about their business in a normal professional way doesn't mean it's not happening. Handing out MAGA hats and using a tragedy as a campaign stunt is not governing, it's just grandstanding for personal gain. Classic charlatan behavior.

 

[spsalso]

Seems to me any expenses involved in lessening the damage or extent of railroad crashes would be passed on to the shipper, with higher rates.

And it seem so me that any raise in cost to a shipper would be passed on to the customer who buys the product.

The alternative might be to have many dispersed chemical plants to lessen long distance shipping. How's that going to fly?

Aside from petroleum fuel products, chemical tank car shipping appears to me to be a "recent" phenomenon. WILD guess: last 30 years.

spsalso

 

[1503-44]

It seems to me that speed limits are a simple and reasonable solution to the transport of hazardous materials. Obviously nobody is interested in safety.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[dik]

It might have been prevented if the hot box detectors reported a change in temperature... say 25% increase or something of that ilk. That could take care of a bearing that normally runs 'warm'.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

It sounds like the bearing went from ok to warning between hot boxes, braking was initiated, and the bearing failed before the train was able to be stopped. A reduction in stopping distance would be the only way to have prevented this failure and the best way to reduce stopping distance is to reduce speed.

 

[dik]

But on the one that failed, there was a significant increase in temperature on the reading before the 'failure' reading; this would require stopping and investigating. It's not just the temperature, but the change in temperature that could signal a problem. In this case it would have.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[IRstuff]

But on the one that failed, there was a significant increase in temperature on the reading before the 'failure' reading; this would require stopping and investigating.

Supposedly, they stopped the train specifically because the last reading exceeded their spec; it's just that it was too late. It's not clear whether an earlier warning would have helped, since the prior hot box reading was still well below the limit for requiring a stop. The only way that those readings would made a substantial difference would be if they were much closer together, but even if the last box was the same 10-mile separation as the first two, that would have saved maybe 10 minutes, at best.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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